Mental Nomad
Full House
Good point, and one which got missed. Prop bets are common in poker circles, but prop bets, like bounties, need to be public if they're based on any aspect of the poker game.
Tourney Horrible Hosting Experience (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Trihonda
- Start date
Good point, and one which got missed. Prop bets are common in poker circles, but prop bets, like bounties, need to be public if they're based on any aspect of the poker game.
OP
OP
Wouldn't a prop bet on a third party be better in secret? Less chance of the third party throwing the bet?
Mental Nomad
Full House
Maybe, but the two people in on the bet are also going to be influenced by their positions on the prop bet, and they're likely to try to influence others in their actions with the third party because of the bet. It is not fair to the other players, including the third party, unless the bet is public... then everyone can fairly judge everyone's actions.
Equal information is the rule. If the prop bet relates to the poker, the bet should be revealed to everyone in the poker.
There's always the risk of a prop bet being thrown... how many pushups can Joe do in a minute? You need to weigh Joe's ability, his determination to beat a challenge number, and also how much he likes the two bettors on either side. It's all part of the equation, but it's fair when it's all public.
Incidentally, I've been known to post bounties on other players during friendly tournaments. It's fun to see how it affects many people's play.
Equal information is the rule. If the prop bet relates to the poker, the bet should be revealed to everyone in the poker.
There's always the risk of a prop bet being thrown... how many pushups can Joe do in a minute? You need to weigh Joe's ability, his determination to beat a challenge number, and also how much he likes the two bettors on either side. It's all part of the equation, but it's fair when it's all public.
Incidentally, I've been known to post bounties on other players during friendly tournaments. It's fun to see how it affects many people's play.
These stories are EXACTLY why I had to go through one of the worst moments in my life. I had created my own monster by providing a good place to play cards, told people to invite friends to "build up" my game and long story short I had to tell most "I'm done". Some very nice people, including several from poker chip sites, were told, "Sorry, I can't do this anymore." Now I have 6-8 regulars, all of which come from personal connections I have and it's so much fun. EVERYONE pulls their share, from setting up, breaking down, food, etc. I miss the 3 or 4 table days, but not enough to go back.
My advice: Be upfront with your concerns with those you want to play. If people aren't willing to chip in to help (with all sorts of things it takes), then they can go play in a casino where people get paid to do what you're doing! Best of luck!
My advice: Be upfront with your concerns with those you want to play. If people aren't willing to chip in to help (with all sorts of things it takes), then they can go play in a casino where people get paid to do what you're doing! Best of luck!
I love how people accept an invitation into someone's home and then forget they are a guest and act like social idiots. Yet more support for why I don't play cards for money with people I don't know well. Actually, it's why I don't do a lot of things, including opening my home to people I don't know well.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
I guess I've been lucky so far, but after reading this entire thread, I may add a new litmus test to friends that want to invite a friend: "Would you let him babysit your daughter for the weekend?"
IMHO you can run two different kinds of home games - a "friendly" game or a private cardroom style game. The former, depending on your friends, may take a long time to grow, but you can slowly add players that fit the group and prune the occasional meat head that tries to wander in. The latter, well, you may have a big strong game in 2 months, but you're taking your chances on who walks in your door, possibly at the expense of any friends & good acquaintances currently playing.
I've been hosting for over 9 years now. My primary game is a monthly tourney that started with 6-8 "regulars". We played fairly regularly for about a year, adding a "friend of a friend" here and there so the invite list slowly grew to around a dozen and I often came close to filling a full 10 man table. My rules are that you may bring a friend as long as (A) you vouch for them and (B) you tell me in advance who it is and how you know them (i.e. no last minute entries). Assuming the new guy isn't a dickhead, I typically invite them to join the distribution list after the game. That new player has to play in at least 2 more tourneys until he's allowed to in turn bring a friend that no one else knows. This ensures that we only have a few new guys playing at any given game, and there are NEVER new players that someone there doesn't know and can vouch for. I use Robert's Rules with some house rules and am consistent with how I rule, and I clearly note what I provide for my players on each invite (soda, coffee, water, light snacks). As such, everyone on my invite list knows I host a very well run and clean game where they can be competitive and have fun. It took a good 3-4 years, but eventually I grew the list to around 30 players and regularly have two table tourneys. Each and every player on my list I would consider a friend or good acquaintance, and everyone who plays is comfortable that some shark isn't going to show up looking to run the game. They all know my wife and kids and respect the fact they're playing in my home. I think I've had two occasions where I haven't extended the invite to the new player (both involved too much alcohol), and on both occasions the person who brought said newbie apologized profusely in fear of loosing their invitation, as they know I don't take that kind of shit at my games.
If you run a good clean & consistent game with a clear designation on what you're providing, especially if you have a nice setup (chips/table/cards), players will come eventually. Build up the group slow with good guys that fit your game and you'll avoid a lot of this kind of nonsense. And make sure everyone knows you have a gun and aren't afraid to use it...
My 2¢ worth!
I've been hosting for over 9 years now. My primary game is a monthly tourney that started with 6-8 "regulars". We played fairly regularly for about a year, adding a "friend of a friend" here and there so the invite list slowly grew to around a dozen and I often came close to filling a full 10 man table. My rules are that you may bring a friend as long as (A) you vouch for them and (B) you tell me in advance who it is and how you know them (i.e. no last minute entries). Assuming the new guy isn't a dickhead, I typically invite them to join the distribution list after the game. That new player has to play in at least 2 more tourneys until he's allowed to in turn bring a friend that no one else knows. This ensures that we only have a few new guys playing at any given game, and there are NEVER new players that someone there doesn't know and can vouch for. I use Robert's Rules with some house rules and am consistent with how I rule, and I clearly note what I provide for my players on each invite (soda, coffee, water, light snacks). As such, everyone on my invite list knows I host a very well run and clean game where they can be competitive and have fun. It took a good 3-4 years, but eventually I grew the list to around 30 players and regularly have two table tourneys. Each and every player on my list I would consider a friend or good acquaintance, and everyone who plays is comfortable that some shark isn't going to show up looking to run the game. They all know my wife and kids and respect the fact they're playing in my home. I think I've had two occasions where I haven't extended the invite to the new player (both involved too much alcohol), and on both occasions the person who brought said newbie apologized profusely in fear of loosing their invitation, as they know I don't take that kind of shit at my games.
If you run a good clean & consistent game with a clear designation on what you're providing, especially if you have a nice setup (chips/table/cards), players will come eventually. Build up the group slow with good guys that fit your game and you'll avoid a lot of this kind of nonsense. And make sure everyone knows you have a gun and aren't afraid to use it...
My 2¢ worth!
I've been hosting for 10 years now and it's definitely a mixed bag. As far as providing refreshments it is clearly up to you to decide whether it is worth I to you or not I extend your hospitality without any thought of being
compensated. As far as equipment it is a matter of fact that you should expect nothing in return as some would play with matchsticks.
All that is provided at my game is free of charge and my doing, expecting anything other than sincere thanks in my opinion is asking to be disappointed in your attendees.
compensated. As far as equipment it is a matter of fact that you should expect nothing in return as some would play with matchsticks.
All that is provided at my game is free of charge and my doing, expecting anything other than sincere thanks in my opinion is asking to be disappointed in your attendees.
Mr Tree
Straight Flush
My regular game I keep a pretty tight leash on. I want a good atmosphere and anyone who is bad for it gets the automatic boot. I will take new players on others recommendation but only if I feel pretty confident in the other players judgment. Only had a couple of players that aren't invited back. One because of temper issues and another who is not a bad person but is certainly an annoying person.
The S@Ps are different as I bring in a lot of new faces so I always worry about them. No issues with the first one but the fear is certainly always there that someone less than savory could come in.
The S@Ps are different as I bring in a lot of new faces so I always worry about them. No issues with the first one but the fear is certainly always there that someone less than savory could come in.
OP
OP
Sheesh, the major drama continues...
I'm hosting my first cash game since the last debacle. It's a single table game, and I did not invite AH. I did not make a big deal of it.
AH and the other buddy (who were in on the prop bet) are two of my regular poker conferees, and AH just messaged us both and commented (snidely) about how he didn't get an invite to my next game. The other buddy messages me privately and starts to lobby to get his invitation rights reinstated, saying it was harsh of me to ban him for good (he is still a friend, after all). However, I think it's incredibly bad form for AH to cry about not getting an invite, and bringing this other buddy into the fray... But maybe I'm wrong?
Let's recap AH's conduct and let me know if I'm wrong to ban him.
1- Prior history of douchey drunken bullying behavior (enough to have several complaints from other regulars and even to the point of two people refusing to play with him).
2- On probation after a year of being uninvited due to #1 (this was his first game back)
3- Secret Prop bet against felting the host (still debatable whether this was funny or inappropriate)
4- Lying to host to get double the max cash buyin amounts (saying he was snagging chips for another player too, when he was actually starting with twice the max buyin).
5- Repeatedly knocking over player's huge chipstack (after being asked/told to stop it by the host).
Keep in mind that AH is a friend and colleague. I enjoy playing with him (even with his antics), but playing with him, and hosting a game he's playing at are two different things. He doesn't like my low buy in amounts. He'd like to buy in for $200 (on a $.25/.50 game), so he's constantly pushing for higher amounts. Having a bigger stack definitely gives him an advantage, so lying to me to get 2x the buyins to start at the other cash table was really shady IMHO.
AH and I have talked... We discussed my displeasure with his conduct. I explained to him that it disrespected my game, and his antics makes it more difficult for me to fill seats moving forward. I didn't specifically say "you're banned", but I think it kinda went without saying that I don't want additional drama when I host. However, it seems the drama has found a way to creep in anyways...
I'm hosting my first cash game since the last debacle. It's a single table game, and I did not invite AH. I did not make a big deal of it.
AH and the other buddy (who were in on the prop bet) are two of my regular poker conferees, and AH just messaged us both and commented (snidely) about how he didn't get an invite to my next game. The other buddy messages me privately and starts to lobby to get his invitation rights reinstated, saying it was harsh of me to ban him for good (he is still a friend, after all). However, I think it's incredibly bad form for AH to cry about not getting an invite, and bringing this other buddy into the fray... But maybe I'm wrong?
Let's recap AH's conduct and let me know if I'm wrong to ban him.
1- Prior history of douchey drunken bullying behavior (enough to have several complaints from other regulars and even to the point of two people refusing to play with him).
2- On probation after a year of being uninvited due to #1 (this was his first game back)
3- Secret Prop bet against felting the host (still debatable whether this was funny or inappropriate)
4- Lying to host to get double the max cash buyin amounts (saying he was snagging chips for another player too, when he was actually starting with twice the max buyin).
5- Repeatedly knocking over player's huge chipstack (after being asked/told to stop it by the host).
Keep in mind that AH is a friend and colleague. I enjoy playing with him (even with his antics), but playing with him, and hosting a game he's playing at are two different things. He doesn't like my low buy in amounts. He'd like to buy in for $200 (on a $.25/.50 game), so he's constantly pushing for higher amounts. Having a bigger stack definitely gives him an advantage, so lying to me to get 2x the buyins to start at the other cash table was really shady IMHO.
AH and I have talked... We discussed my displeasure with his conduct. I explained to him that it disrespected my game, and his antics makes it more difficult for me to fill seats moving forward. I didn't specifically say "you're banned", but I think it kinda went without saying that I don't want additional drama when I host. However, it seems the drama has found a way to creep in anyways...
If you've already talked with AH, then that's a done deal. Invite him if/when you want, or don't. Tell the other guy to MHOFB, and feel free to invite however he wants to the games that HE hosts.
/endstory, /enddrama
/endstory, /enddrama
I would tell him nothing has changed, that you don't want to deal with the drama, period. Poker is a numbers game, and like someone on here said, "Either your game is growing or it is dying." There is something wrong when you are willing to lose two players in order to keep one disruptive player.
courage
Full House
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Agree with bginga, it's over. Any one of those items is enough by itself. If AH persists in nagging I'd just tell him "I can't have cheaters in my game. I have to protect the integrity of the game and others don't want to play with you." Items #4, #1.
It's been awhile so I'm not sure if I missed this before or just forgot about it. But yeah, he's done, stick a fork in him.
Mr Tree
Straight Flush
This, 1000%
Mental Nomad
Full House
It's done. You made the right call by not inviting them. Stand by your ground, protect your game, protect the players that are good for your game.
OP
OP
Thanks all.
Yup, glad I've stuck my ground. Don't need the drama (or the douche-baggery). And an invite to my game isn't a right, it's a privilege. I guess I was a little irked that player #2 was sticking up for AH to that degree, saying he wasn't that bad. If AH wanted to attend my game so badly, all he had to do was respect my game/house/rules, etc... Doesn't sound overly complicated to me.
As I've said, I don't mind playing with AH, but hosting him is a different story. And I've taken the mindset (thanks in part to advice here) to tell the buddy to MHOFB and STFU. If he persists, then it's an easy call to eliminate the drama and take him off the invite list as well. I'm tired of the soap opera.
I want to have fun when I host cards, not drama.
Yup, glad I've stuck my ground. Don't need the drama (or the douche-baggery). And an invite to my game isn't a right, it's a privilege. I guess I was a little irked that player #2 was sticking up for AH to that degree, saying he wasn't that bad. If AH wanted to attend my game so badly, all he had to do was respect my game/house/rules, etc... Doesn't sound overly complicated to me.
As I've said, I don't mind playing with AH, but hosting him is a different story. And I've taken the mindset (thanks in part to advice here) to tell the buddy to MHOFB and STFU. If he persists, then it's an easy call to eliminate the drama and take him off the invite list as well. I'm tired of the soap opera.
I want to have fun when I host cards, not drama.
OP
OP
Done! Hosting tonight AND tomorrow. Tonight is a laid back group of guys that I've been playing dealer's choice with for 20 years. Tomorrow is strictly NLHE and a little spicier game. I'm sure to have plenty of beers both nights (I'm using your advice as my rationalization to drink... You always provide good advice)
Shanghai Sparky
Pair
I'm still in negotiations with the family social director for Friday night. I might be later that the start time.
I also have secured a little gift for you considering some of the fallout from the last tourney.
I also have secured a little gift for you considering some of the fallout from the last tourney.
Done! Hosting tonight AND tomorrow. Tonight is a laid back group of guys that I've been playing dealer's choice with for 20 years. Tomorrow is strictly NLHE and a little spicier game. I'm sure to have plenty of beers both nights (I'm using your advice as my rationalization to drink... You always provide good advice)
OP
OP
I'm still in negotiations with the family social director for Friday night. I might be later that the start time.
I also have secured a little gift for you considering some of the fallout from the last tourney.
We will save a seat for you, regardless of when you get here.
And as I've said, there's no need for you to do anything special (seriously). That last game is in the past. Last game was more about one/two bad eggs raining on my parade. It was more about me feeling taken advantage by outsiders to my game, and not really about being compensated for hośting. I enjoy hośting. I have no problems buying my friends a beer.. Speaking of which, I have more than enough beer on hand, so as a reminder, I'm suspending the BYOB for this weekend's game. Just come have a good time playing cards with friends.
Shanghai Sparky
Pair
OP
OP
True, but I still wanted to.
I was blown away, seriously!!!!
Anyway, I think the game was awesome! I think we both doubled our money, had fun, and experienced a nice drama-free night of cards. WIN!
Oh, and I'm not counting the flak we both received for playing so late... Next time I finish playing poker at 4am, I think I'm wearing a bullet proof vest to bed, lol... Ha!
I'm glad things turned out well TH... Nothing worse than having a couple of AHs in our games...
Par for the course...
So buy a BPV then 'cause it WILL happen...
OP
OP
Update:
Hosted yet another night of cards last night. Neither AH or our other buddy were invited. I didn't want drama whatsoever. I had an incredible event. We only played until 1am, I was stuck an uncharacteristic $140 for the night, and I still had a blast. The guys were super fun, and players respectful (with spirited play). At one point I was up a couple hundred, but wound up with a couple cooler hands, what ya gonna do...
We seriously had no trouble finding players. I had them showing up/calling/knocking down my door to play. This helped reduce my stress levels a lot (well, except when I had a few last minute unannounced arrivals and thought I might have to turn people away...). It all worked out in the end though.
I had one teenie bit of weird drama, but it didn't last long, and I'll cover it in a different thread. The main point here is that there was some speculation (by others and myself) that maybe I was just being overly sensitive in the OP about stuff due to being stuck for the night. Well, I wasn't happy about being down last night, but I looked back on the night and it was still very enjoyable. Completely different vibe.
Now, I just need a few more positive cash flow sessions to build back up my BR.
Hosted yet another night of cards last night. Neither AH or our other buddy were invited. I didn't want drama whatsoever. I had an incredible event. We only played until 1am, I was stuck an uncharacteristic $140 for the night, and I still had a blast. The guys were super fun, and players respectful (with spirited play). At one point I was up a couple hundred, but wound up with a couple cooler hands, what ya gonna do...
We seriously had no trouble finding players. I had them showing up/calling/knocking down my door to play. This helped reduce my stress levels a lot (well, except when I had a few last minute unannounced arrivals and thought I might have to turn people away...). It all worked out in the end though.
I had one teenie bit of weird drama, but it didn't last long, and I'll cover it in a different thread. The main point here is that there was some speculation (by others and myself) that maybe I was just being overly sensitive in the OP about stuff due to being stuck for the night. Well, I wasn't happy about being down last night, but I looked back on the night and it was still very enjoyable. Completely different vibe.
Now, I just need a few more positive cash flow sessions to build back up my BR.
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