Tourney Home Tourney Tweaks.... (2 Viewers)

[longflop]

I have a monthly home game. we start with a 18 person NLHE tourney, then once enough people bust for the second table to open up, dealers choice cash game on that table until the tourney finishes. This is my current structure for the tournament:

18 Players, $20 Buy in with one $10 re buy and one $10 add on. Starting stack is $50 in chips (100 starting big blinds) with the rebuy and add on getting $25 in chips. My rule is that to add on you have to have less than the $50 starting stack at the time of add on. 20 minute levels are as follows:

Level Ante SB BB Notes
1 X .25 .50
2 X .50 1.00
3 X .75 1.50
4 .25 1.00 2.00 Re buy stops at the end of this level. add on's are also done at the end of this level
5 .50 2.00 4.00
6 1.00 4.00 8.00 Color out the .25 chips
7 2.00 8.00 16.00
8 4.00 16.00 32.00
9 5.00 20.00 40.00 Color out the $1 chips
10 10.00 40.00 80.00 Anything past this, the ante's keep doubling and the SB and BB are based off that. We usually end on this level.

I end up paying 5 spots. Players who cashed in the previous months tournament start with a bounty chip. Anyone to bust them gets an instant $10 out of the pot. if you win with your own bounty chip, that increases your share $10. There is also a $10 bonus for high hand of the night (it can be folded to you, but the river card must be shown) and the highest losing hand. Usually the losing hand has left by the end of the tourney, so I credit it towards next months buy in. I figure its a good way to spread more money around and keep people happy. They payouts are:

Position Pot Share (minus bonuses)
1st 8
2nd 4
3rd 3
4th 2
5th 1

Any thoughts are appreciated. The one tweak I am thinking about is getting rid of the maximum chip count for the add on and letting everyone have the option. The only downfall to that would be more chips in play and thus extending the tournament, but we seem to get it done quickly enough for at least a couple guys to stick around for the cash game. It would add more to the pot, and worst case scenario is people are out $40, which if we went to watch football at the bar, you're spending $40 anyway. With my group, that buy in seems to be the happy medium, were nobody is pissed if they lose, but the winner can get paid close to $200.

Thanks for reading this far! You guys are the best!

 

[Poker Zombie]

Quick thought: It feels very positive EV to just add-on as quickly as possible. If I start as a blind, I'd be rebuying (provided I hadn't won the hand). I probably wouldn't even play anything but a strong hand just to be sitting on a $74.75 stack ($50-.25 SB + $25 Rebuy) when everyone else is still playing $50. After that, I would never rebuy, because I'd be short compared to everyone else that caught onto the quick add-on strategy.

With the blinds doubling every level beyond the 3rd, add-ons and rebuys are going to have a negligible effect on the length of the game. You might add-on 1 level more (20 minutes) tops.

I like the bonuses/bounties. I do them as well, but not all the same night. It really helps keep the losing players happy, because sometimes they can win something, even if it's just 1/2 a buy-in. It's free money, and like your game, my players often compare a night at the Zombie Poker Club to be a price of a night out. Winning is just extra fun.

 

[longflop]

Quick thought: It feels very positive EV to just add-on as quickly as possible. If I start as a blind, I'd be rebuying (provided I hadn't won the hand). I probably wouldn't even play anything but a strong hand just to be sitting on a $74.75 stack ($50-.25 SB + $25 Rebuy) when everyone else is still playing $50.

I do the add on between level 4 and 5. That is only time to add on. My thinking was, that is you were down, you could boost your stack without having to go all in right before the end of level 4 with a bad hand, so you could bust and rebuy. You're still way behind with potentially only a little over 6 big blinds left, but hey, a chip and a chair right?

 

[Blaster]

Just about all your blind levels double, which is not necessary ( & most would say horrible luckfest structure) for a 3.5 to 4.5 hr tournament.
Use Blind Valet, other older posts here, or a similar blind level calculator to make more sane blind levels ....

 

[links_slayer]

levels 1-4 look fine

levels 5+ are a mess - increases from level-to-level are way too big (except 16/32 to 20/40)

 

[BGinGA]

I'm guessing that re-buys are only available when busted out, and that the add-on is only offered at the end of the re-buy period (to qualifying stacks less than the starting stack size). I would not restrict the add-on purchase -- by doing so, you penalize those players who have done well and have above-average stacks. The add-on should be available to all players, or eliminated altogether.

I do think there are better blind structures for a 100BB re-buy/add-on format that finishes in roughly 3-1/2 hours. I also prefer home tournaments without antes, unless utilizing a dedicated dealer to run the table. Eliminating antes allows for the removal of the lowest denomination chips sooner, and also results in faster play (more hands per hour).

I'm also not a fan of inconsistent blind increases -- your structure starts with a 100% jump, tapers down with 50% and 33% increases, then jumps back up to 100% increases.... except for L9, which is only a 25% increase, for no really good reason.

You can dramatically improve the structure by adding one extra level, and altering some of the blind amounts to create more consistent increases. I'd much prefer to play in something similar to this, which will run about the same length of time (with all other variables remaining the same):

lvl SB BB
L1 .25 .50
L2 .50 1.00
L3 .75 1.50
L4 1.25 2.50
remove T.25 chips
L5 2 4
L6 3 6
L7 5 10
L8 8 16
remove T1 chips
L9 15 30
L10 25 50
L11 40 80 ***
L12 60 120
remove T5 chips
L13 100 200

Most events will end no later than L10 (or L11 with a large number of re-buys and add-ons).

All blind increases are 50% to 67%, except for L2 (100%) and L9 (88%), with an average increase of 68% (your structure ranges from 25% to 100% with a 79% average increase).

 

[longflop]

I'm guessing that re-buys are only available when busted out, and that the add-on is only offered at the end of the re-buy period (to qualifying stacks less than the starting stack size). I would not restrict the add-on purchase -- by doing so, you penalize those players who have done well and have above-average stacks. The add-on should be available to all players, or eliminated altogether.

I do think there are better blind structures for a 100BB re-buy/add-on format that finishes in roughly 3-1/2 hours. I also prefer home tournaments without antes, unless utilizing a dedicated dealer to run the table. Eliminating antes allows for the removal of the lowest denomination chips sooner, and also results in faster play (more hands per hour).

I'm also not a fan of inconsistent blind increases -- your structure starts with a 100% jump, tapers down with 50% and 33% increases, then jumps back up to 100% increases.... except for L9, which is only a 25% increase, for no really good reason.

You can dramatically improve the structure by adding one extra level, and altering some of the blind amounts to create more consistent increases. I'd much prefer to play in something similar to this, which will run about the same length of time (with all other variables remaining the same):

lvl SB BB
L1 .25 .50
L2 .50 1.00
L3 .75 1.50
L4 1.25 2.50
remove T.25 chips
L5 2 4
L6 3 6
L7 5 10
L8 8 16
remove T1 chips
L9 15 30
L10 25 50
L11 40 80 ***
L12 60 120
remove T5 chips
L13 100 200

Most events will end no later than L10 (or L11 with a large number of re-buys and add-ons).

All blind increases are 50% to 67%, except for L2 (100%) and L9 (88%), with an average increase of 68% (your structure ranges from 25% to 100% with a 79% average increase).

BG, you are the man, I am putting this in play next tourney. I'm going to give it a shot without the ante's. It will be less stress for me as I am always worrying about if the ante's are correct. Also going to remove the add on restriction. Guys would give me grief when I would let the guy with $49 add on but not the guy with $52.

This is why I love posting on here, guys with more experience doing it have a better method!

 

[longflop]

I'm guessing that re-buys are only available when busted out, and that the add-on is only offered at the end of the re-buy period (to qualifying stacks less than the starting stack size). I would not restrict the add-on purchase -- by doing so, you penalize those players who have done well and have above-average stacks. The add-on should be available to all players, or eliminated altogether

Also, under this structure, does it still make sense to stop rebuy's and allow the add on after level 4? If I waited to after level 5 to do it, you're only adding about 4 big blinds.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Most people would not advocate rebuying if you get fewer than 20 BB (Big Blinds). I'm ok with 16 BB. If the group does not raise much I can see rebuying with as little as 12 BB - but only in the most extreme limping groups.

It is extremely disheartening if someone rebuys with 4 BB and only gets to play 1 hand for their $20.

 

[longflop]

Most people would not advocate rebuying if you get fewer than 20 BB (Big Blinds). I'm ok with 16 BB. If the group does not raise much I can see rebuying with as little as 12 BB - but only in the most extreme limping groups.

It is extremely disheartening if someone rebuys with 4 BB and only gets to play 1 hand for their $20.

So lets say that I end rebuys at the end of level 4. Then if one were to rebuy at some point during level 4 (we almost never have a rebuy before that level and add on at the end between 4 and 5, that would get them somewhere around the starting stack of $50, which would be a shade over the 12 rebuys. I'm going to give that a shot. if it doesn't work, maybe I'll turn the rebuy into a full $50 stack for the $10 amount.

 

[v1pe]

I personally would never rebuy to a tournament with less than 20bb. Currently at my monthly game we do a T7500 (100BB starting stack) and I allow one rebuy through level 5 (150/300). The rebuy amount is T9000 to allow for 22.5BB at the first level after the break (200/400). I allow anyone who hasn't rebought already at the break to surrender their current stack and to rebuy, so players aren't punished for not trying to bust out towards the end of the rebuy period. I think maybe @Poker Zombie suggested this and it seemed to work well the one time I've been able to use it. I also give an on time chip bonus of 1k so the rebuy amount is only about 1BB off of that at level 6.

I'm still tweaking it, I'm going to try bounties at an upcoming game and see what folks think of those.

 

[upNdown]

I think the add-on restriction is ridiculous for the reasons pointed out above - it punishes people who are doing well.
Rebuys are fine, but personally I despise addons. Why not have a level playing field?
If you actually have some people who REALLY want to play for $30 and others who REALLY only want to play for $20, then you can have a multi-tiered playout structure, where the extra $$ is only available to the people who bought in for it.

 

[BGinGA]

Also, under this structure, does it still make sense to stop rebuy's and allow the add on after level 4? If I waited to after level 5 to do it, you're only adding about 4 big blinds.

The structure starts with 100bb, drops to 50bb at L2, then to 33bb at L3, and is 20bb at L4. That's where I'd end re-buys, since L5 is only 13bb. It also coordinates well with the color-up break.

$20 Buy in with one $10 re buy and one $10 add on. Starting stack is $50 in chips (100 starting big blinds) with the rebuy and add on getting $25 in chips.

I'd offer these choices (limit one, two, or unlimited - your decision) anytime during the first four levels:

• busted players can purchase a full T50 re-buy stack for $20
• players with stacks smaller than 1/2-stack (T25) can purchase a half-stack T25 add-on for $10 (so nobody can add on and end up with more than a starting stack)
• players with stacks smaller than a full T50 stack can exchange it for a full T50 stack for $20 (zombie rule, helps prevent panic all-ins, especially late in L4)

If you keep the optional add-on after L4 (end of the re-buy period), then I'd offer a smaller add-on available to anybody that still has chips: $5 for T20 (5bb at the start of L5). That adds a few chips to the short stacks, and adds a few extra dollars to the pot.

Those changes will likely add more money to the pot than your existing re-buy/add-on structure, and they also provide additional strategy decisions.

 

[longflop]

The structure starts with 100bb, drops to 50bb at L2, then to 33bb at L3, and is 20bb at L4. That's where I'd end re-buys, since L5 is only 13bb. It also coordinates well with the color-up break.



I'd offer these choices (limit one, two, or unlimited - your decision) anytime during the first four levels:

• busted players can purchase a full T50 re-buy stack for $20
• players with stacks smaller than 1/2-stack (T25) can purchase a half-stack T25 add-on for $10 (so nobody can add on and end up with more than a starting stack)
• players with stacks smaller than a full T50 stack can exchange it for a full T50 stack for $20 (zombie rule, helps prevent panic all-ins, especially late in L4)

If you keep the optional add-on after L4 (end of the re-buy period), then I'd offer a smaller add-on available to anybody that still has chips: $5 for T20 (5bb at the start of L5). That adds a few chips to the short stacks, and adds a few extra dollars to the pot.

Those changes will likely add more money to the pot than your existing re-buy/add-on structure, and they also provide additional strategy decisions.

lots to think about, thanks guys!

 

[longflop]

I'd offer these choices (limit one, two, or unlimited - your decision) anytime during the first four levels:

• busted players can purchase a full T50 re-buy stack for $20
• players with stacks smaller than 1/2-stack (T25) can purchase a half-stack T25 add-on for $10 (so nobody can add on and end up with more than a starting stack)
• players with stacks smaller than a full T50 stack can exchange it for a full T50 stack for $20 (zombie rule, helps prevent panic all-ins, especially late in L4)

I think the best way for me to go is for players to get the choice of ONE of these options at any point during the first 4 levels. That would keep anybody from leaving down $80 and pissed. I really appreciate your input man, thanks again!

 

[Poker Zombie]

My game appears to be very similar to yours. $20 events. It used to be unlimited rebuys, buy one player with deeper pockets took advantage of that with a jam-rebuy-jam repeat strategy. I didn't mind (he made the prize pool very juicy, but it was ruining the fun for players and couples that wanted to limit their cost for a night out. So we implemented the 1 rebuy rule, known in our group as the "Robbie Rule". The group grew, though we lost Robbie.

To entice players to rebuy, we offer a 10% bonus to rebuy stacks (in your case it would be a T55 stack instead of T50). As mentioned, we don't require being felted, but you forfeit (remove from play) any chips remaining in your stack. This avoids the all-in jam with any 2 cards that you typically see just before rebuy periods end, rebuying players don't juice their opponents stack (or worse, chip dump to a spouse/buddy), and players with 50-60% the starting stack often rebuy just to take 22BB into the non-rebuy period instead of a measly 10-12BB.

We typically see 1/3 the players rebuy in a night, though there has been nights where rebuy madness kicks in with over 50% of the players getting a new stack and rebuy droughts (mostly on ladies night) with very few to no rebuys.

 

[longflop]

We typically see 1/3 the players rebuy in a night, though there has been nights where rebuy madness kicks in with over 50% of the players getting a new stack and rebuy droughts (mostly on ladies night) with very few to no rebuys.

Sixish rebuys would be ideal. With my payout structure, 5th place gets 1/18th of the pot, so I count on the rebuys to pay the bounties and high hand/bad beat bonus. I really want to keep the bounties and bonuses. Even spreading half a buy in around to more players helps to keep people happy. I guess worst case scenario is that 5th doesn't get the full buy in back. Either way, its a night away from the kids and wives, playing poker, with beer in the fridge, the bar open and sports on the tv, it could be way worse.