Holdem spot against exposed hand (2 Viewers)

[Frogzilla]

150 player live $250 MTT 40 left 17 paid, avg stack 78k. Bb 2500 level.

Me: UTG 140k
UTG1: solid, pro? 200k (might be tourney chip lead)
HJ: 60% VPIP pre, passive post (seriously) with 34k
BB: unknown 18k

Pre:
I open to 6k
UTG1 3! To 12k
HJ calls
BB 4! Shoves tiny to 18k
I call
UTG1 calls

Flop
I check
UTG1 bets 20k
HJ calls for less 16k
UTG1 exposes


I played this bad I think but curious what yall do

 

[Kam]

So did UTG1 flip their cards on purpose before you acted?

Did they think it was heads up with the HJ or they knew you were still left to act?

 

[DrStrange]

HJ is all-in. Let's range him with flush draw, straight draw, top pair with occasional stupid stuff. Noting that Hero has blockers to the straight draw holdings. I don't see hero gains much equity for the main pot by pushing A3s off the hand. Just guessing - Hero needs to hit a set to win the main pot 85% and is ahead with jacks 15% Let's give him ~18% equity vs HJ. That's just about fair odds to call the flop bet. (maybe 85% is a bit too pessimistic?)

As for the side pot. A3s is a slim dog vs Hero's jacks. 45-55 or so. I will assume Hero is 100% he saw the exposed cards.

I guess the shove is a thin +EV play in cash games and a modestly poor EV play in a tournament setting. I vote fold if Hero thinks he is average or better vs the field but jam if Hero thinks he is weaker than the field and needs a healthy dose of luck to make the money.

DrStrange

PS Hero also might consider jamming on the exposed hand and showing Jacks is a dick move and could affect Hero's meta game reputation for good or ill.

 

[mipevi]

Weird flex by UTG1, but ok. The pot is quite big already, so I don't think you will get him to fold on the flop. Call and charge his draw on the turn if he is still behind.

 

[Frogzilla]

So did UTG1 flip their cards on purpose before you acted?

Did they think it was heads up with the HJ or they knew you were still left to act?

He must have forgot I was in hand (despite me checking to him on flop).

In game, I jammed (intending to get called and gain enough +chip EV on side to make up for the bad call into the main). But he folded. I guess in retrospect he does not know if his Ace outs are live so he has a different calculation that I anticipated. And he clearly values ICM more than most of the field but didn’t have that info at the time.

I am leaning after much thought that the best play is to raise small on the flop, and for brick turns force him to forfeit all his equity. Even an Ace could be a brick river and that might be a really fun bluff spot. Maybe something like raise to 40k (leaves about 80k back) forces him to either give up or put money in way behind?

PS Hero also might consider jamming on the exposed hand and showing Jacks is a dick move and could affect Hero's meta game reputation for good or ill.

I’m interested in discussing the ethics as well. I’ll freely concede I attempted to take full advantage and UTG1 made comments to that effect afterwards. Worth being clear here I did nothing to induce the exposed hand. No pump fake, no nothing. I’m obviously in the hand. Showing my hand is expressly forbidden in tournament rules so that’s out of the question.

Is there a duty to play the spot “hard”? Tournaments do have rules against soft play. Is this a situation I’m bound to go for whatever I feel the max value is?

 

[upNdown]

I was thinking a raise on the flop was the right play and I'm fine with the jam.
I don't think there's any ethical question - your options shouldn't be reduced because of his mistake.
Is there a duty to play hard? I don't think so. There's a duty to not play soft, which some people might argue is excused by his mistake. I'm not really one of them, but if somebody is worried about their karma in a situation like that, who am I to argue.

 

[DrStrange]

And what happened with the main pot? That was the big prize sure to be won, The 4K side pot was basically the blinds.

 

[Frogzilla]

And what happened with the main pot? That was the big prize sure to be won, The 4K side pot was basically the blinds.

HJ had Q9o and held. Pre was UTG1 vs UTG 3bet. Texas poker really needs to not get shutdown.

 

[JustinInMN]

Flop
I check
UTG1 bets 20k
HJ calls for less 16k
UTG1 exposes


I played this bad I think but curious what yall do

So it's 20k to call in a pot of 114K and you can play perfectly against the only guy left that has chips.

So folding is never an option. The question becomes to does hero want to play for stacks knowing he has to fade the nut flush draw with two to come.

If hero shoves what I think is about 122k here, villain will have to call off 102k to win 236k. Hes is probably calling with the nut flush draw all day here. The only way he wouldn't is maybe if hero shows a set or maybe AA. Villain would probably not put hero on AA or QQ so sets are a small part of hero's range as played.

So I really think call flop is probably the smart play here.

The turn is tricky. Villain assumes he has at least 11 outs and maybe as many as 14 out of 46 unseen cards. So he probably needs pot odds of 3-1 when it reality is would be 2.5-1 if hero were to shove. So hero might decide that shove is worthwhile to deny equity here.

Lower variance route is to check, though. The spot is close. (And as hero, I would check planning to call if villain decided to get cute and bet this spot.)

If hero catches a bad turn (heart or ace) then just fold, and let villain bust out two players and hero keeps 102k.

And villain exposed his hand through no fault of hero's. He probably just forgot after realizing two players are already all in. So I think there is no problem with taking this line. Hero may be making a call where he might otherwise fold given either all in player could have a queen.

So I think the way to take advantage of the exposure is to have a low variance showdown, personally. But consider that shove on a safe turn. I don't like a flop shove though, personally.

 

[JustinInMN]

In game, I jammed (intending to get called and gain enough +chip EV on side to make up for the bad call into the main). But he folded. I guess in retrospect he does not know if his Ace outs are live so he has a different calculation that I anticipated. And he clearly values ICM more than most of the field but didn’t have that info at the time.

Okay, now having read the result...

My dislike of the shove was totally based on the idea villain couldn't fold. If he is capable of folding flop, then this really was a good move. You denied him a ton of equity.

I am leaning after much thought that the best play is to raise small on the flop, and for brick turns force him to forfeit all his equity. Even an Ace could be a brick river and that might be a really fun bluff spot. Maybe something like raise to 40k (leaves about 80k back) forces him to either give up or put money in way behind?

I actually disagree with this a lot. I think the only motivation to bet flop is to deny equity in an already large pot. To that end, all in is the only bet that makes since given villain still has the price to call. Checking makes sense too. But I think a small bet is the worst of both words. It never denies equity and gives villain a discount to draw.

HJ had Q9o and held. Pre was UTG1 vs UTG 3bet. Texas poker really needs to not get shutdown.

Okay then. Well nh. Fwiw. The money you had put into the pot was already lost except for the 18k to cover the flop shove.

It was worth the risk that hj didn't have it and you would have won a big pot.