Tourney His hand was mucked, but it wasn’t? (1 Viewer)

[upNdown]

Just played this hand at foxwoods

MTT down to 16, but still 9 at my table.
3000/6000 1000 ante.
I’m short at 72k in small blind.
One limper, folds to me, I shoved with AK

Limper tanks for a while, finally says all right, kind of dejectedly, and tabled his cards face up with AQ.
I thought it was a fold and so did the dealer because he mucked that guy’s cards, I tossed mine in the muck, and the dealer started pushing chips toward me. The guy says “what are you doing, I called. I looked up and his bounty chip was out in front of him. Not across the betting line, but a few inches in front of his stacks. (A Foxwoods, a bet bounty chip means all-in) I have no idea when that chip came forward, but it must have happened after he tabled his cards.

Dealer got all apologetic and says it’s okay, I know which cards are which, and rebuilt the hand. I’m pretty sure I could have demanded the pot at that point, but that would have been stupid since I had him dominated, right?
The guy caught his Q on the turn and I was out.
So, two questions -
Was that hand over?
Would anybody have acted differently in my position?

 

[bsdunbar1]

Following with interest......

In my understanding "all right" is not a call.

 

[WedgeRock]

MTT down to 16, but still 9 at my table.

Waitwut?

Was that hand over?

I recall a ruling where an AI hand cannot fold, but villain merely called an AI and obviously wasn't AI himself.

That said, he corrected the dealer pretty quickly, so I think his intent was to call and RROP says that two easily identifiable cards can be retrieved from the muck.

Results still suck balls. Pokerstove says you were a 3:1 favorite.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Did you ask for the floor to rule? “All right” means nothing IMO.

From TDA
45: Methods of Calling

Standard and acceptable forms of calling include: A) saying “call”; B) pushing out chips equal to a call; C) silently pushing out an overchip; or D) silently pushing out multiple chips equal to a call under the multi-chip rule (Rule 50). Silently betting chip(s) relatively tiny to the bet (ex: blinds 2k-4k. A bets 50k, B then silently puts out one 1k chip) is non-standard, strongly discouraged, subject to penalty, and will be interpreted at TDs discretion, including being ruled a full call.

57: Non-Standard & Unclear Betting

Players use unofficial betting terms and gestures at their own risk. These may be interpreted to mean other than what the player intended. Also, if a declared bet can legally have multiple meanings, it will be ruled the highest reasonable amount that is less than or equal to the pot size* before the bet. Ex: NLHE 200-400, the pot totals less than 5000, player declares “I bet five.” With no other clarifying information, the bet is 500; if the pot totals 5000 or more, the bet is 5000. *The pot is the total of all prior bets including any bets in front of a player not yet pulled in. See Rules 2, 3, 40 & 46.

 

[JustinInMN]

I would have at least asked for a floor ruling. I don't think it's clear guy with AQ called based on the verbalization alone. It's possible the floor would rule based on the bounty chip moved and the result is the same.

 

[ekricket]

Did the villain ever see your hole cards?

 

[upNdown]

Did the villain ever see your hole cards?

No.
And people saying I should have asked for a floor ruling - that occurred to me. But I knew he had AQ, so why would I? I can’t imagine anybody wouldn’t want to get it all in at that point, against AQ, right?
It’s just a weird situation, and I got screwed by nobody but the deck. I’ve just never seen that done outside of a home game and was curious what the ruling would have been, if I was wacko enough to demand one.

 

[Kensco]

Really vague language on the "caller's" part; absent pushing chips over the line my humble and inexperienced opinion is - although he clearly intended to call as evidenced by how quickly he "corrected" the dealer - his action was a fold.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

Villain isn't protecting himself with that kind of call. You certainly could have called the floor, especially if Foxwoods enforces the betting line. But you obviously wanted a call in that particular spot.

Weird situation, but I don't have a huge problem with the way it worked out. It would have been a VERY different story if Villain had spoken up after seeing your cards.

 

[upNdown]

Villain isn't protecting himself with that kind of call. You certainly could have called the floor, especially if Foxwoods enforces the betting line. But you obviously wanted a call in that particular spot.

Weird situation, but I don't have a huge problem with the way it worked out. It would have been a VERY different story if Villain had spoken up after seeing your cards.

I mean if he saw my cards, he would have been happy to leave his cards in the muck.

Which by the way is another good reason never to show your cards. Muck them and leave them guessing.

 

[Frogzilla]

Yea...I would have let that been enforced as a call.

 

[Schmendr1ck]

I mean if he saw my cards, he would have been happy to leave his cards in the muck.

Which by the way is another good reason never to show your cards. Muck them and leave them guessing.

Of course. It seems very possible that his "call" was an angle, and he was hoping to get a look at your cards so that he could argue for a fold if he was behind or a call if he was ahead. Good on ya for not falling for it.

 

[upNdown]

Of course. It seems very possible that his "call" was an angle, and he was hoping to get a look at your cards so that he could argue for a fold if he was behind or a call if he was ahead. Good on ya for not falling for it.

You know, you’re probably right. Based on exactly where that chip was, and the fact that nobody saw when it cane out, he could have easily argued it either way.

 

[WedgeRock]

On a side note, why were you playing one table of 9 and one table of 7, and not two tables of 8?! Please tell me there was a recent elimination and the tables weren't balanced yet

 

[Lemonzest]

Once I saw his cards clearly the right play is to let it play out. Asking for a ruling to make him fold is ridiculous.

I have been in this situation before when I was a new player and I was the one making the call. I tabled my hand but didn't verbalize my play. It cost me a 200 pot and I learned my lesson to always verbalize my action. Before I could protest that I was calling villain was already stacking chips and my hand was mucked.

 

[upNdown]

On a side note, why were you playing one table of 9 and one table of 7, and not two tables of 8?! Please tell me there was a recent elimination and the tables weren't balanced yet

I don’t know what was happening at the other table, but when you’re 9 and 8 and the 8 loses one, you’re 9 and 7 until the other table finishes it’s hand. And this particular hand took a little while. They did a good job of balancing tables throughout, but this was one of those points in a turbo where people drop like flies.

 

[trigs]

You're very lucky that the dealer could pull your cards out of the muck and recreate the hand. I never throw my cards into the muck early. I wait until dealer pushes me the chips and then I pass my cards to the dealer.

 

[JustinInMN]

You're very lucky that the dealer could pull your cards out of the muck and recreate the hand. I never throw my cards into the muck early. I wait until dealer pushes me the chips and then I pass my cards to the dealer.

1,000,000 percent agree! Your hand is the receipt for the pot, never relinquish it early

 

[upNdown]

You're very lucky that the dealer could pull your cards out of the muck and recreate the hand. I never throw my cards into the muck early. I wait until dealer pushes me the chips and then I pass my cards to the dealer.

HE WAS PUSHING ME THE CHIPS!!
Maybe I got the order wrong when I typed it earlier, but I have that same habit - wait til chips are pushed before tossing cards.

 

[trigs]

HE WAS PUSING ME THE CHIPS!!
Maybe I got the order wrong when I typed it earlier, but I have that same habit - wait til chips are pushed before tossing cards.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude. That's not what the OP said though, so I was only commenting on the information as it was presented to me. Also, I personally never "toss my cards into the muck" ever. I accept the chips and then slide my cards to the dealer and then the dealer places them into the muck. I will always try to avoid literally throwing my cards into the muck cards.

 

[upNdown]

Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude. That's not what the OP said though, so I was only commenting on the information as it was presented to me. Also, I personally never "toss my cards into the muck" ever. I accept the chips and then slide my cards to the dealer and then the dealer places them into the muck. I will always try to avoid literally throwing my cards into the muck cards.

Sorry, I wasn't yelling at you, I was yelling about the fact that the pot had already been awarded to me once, before I losr.

 

[JustinInMN]

HE WAS PUSHING ME THE CHIPS!!
Maybe I got the order wrong when I typed it earlier, but I have that same habit - wait til chips are pushed before tossing cards.

Ah that's a dealer fail then, he shouldn't be pushing chips until gathering folded hands.

 

[Gobbs]

Dealer error - he should have asked the player to clarify if he was folding or discarding his hand before doing anything. That being said, I believe the right ruling was made, assuming he never saw your cards and this is the first time it happened. So, no need to call the floor.