I take offense to the Crack house reference. I would greatly appreciate you calling it the Hookers and Blow house instead.
High Low Declare (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter DarkHelmet55
- Start date
I take offense to the Crack house reference. I would greatly appreciate you calling it the Hookers and Blow house instead.
Frogzilla
4 of a Kind
Nobody should get anything by the way I’m understanding the rules
A didn’t win the low
B didn’t win the high
C didn’t win both
Also seems like a dumb variant, just play regular o-8
A didn’t win the low
B didn’t win the high
C didn’t win both
Also seems like a dumb variant, just play regular o-8
OP
OP
DarkHelmet55
Pair
Yes its always in 7 card games we do it where you see others cards and know where you might stand. And yes guess correctly and you still can scoop without the risk of going both. Sorry its a very competitive friendly game where laughing at a guy because he went both and couldnt close is a favorite past time.
grebe
Full House
"Your house, your rules" is the only answer to this. Same with your next post on what constitutes nut low. There's A5 and 27 variants. Make a ruling, announce to all and stick with it.
Now my opinion: declare games spit directly in the face of more standard split pot games such as omaha and 7 stud hi/low, where the goal is to TRY to get both pots....or at least a portion of both. That is why this game is so tilting to many players here.
That being said, I'd play it. I wouldnt choose it, but I'd play it.
Now my opinion: declare games spit directly in the face of more standard split pot games such as omaha and 7 stud hi/low, where the goal is to TRY to get both pots....or at least a portion of both. That is why this game is so tilting to many players here.
That being said, I'd play it. I wouldnt choose it, but I'd play it.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
I agree, nobody wins. Send all the chips to me
!This is a weird question and reveals the flaw in this game.
If this is your custom, then I think you rule Player C's hand is dead because he failed to scoop, and A and B split. I take it if Player C had 65321 instead, his hand would be dead, and B would still win high with a straight even though it was inferior to C's flush. (And A would have the best low for the other half.) I think that's the crux of the argument that removes any of the "nobody wins" phenomenon.
It makes no sense to me to rule that "A" gets any part of a pot for which he didn't even declare.
But at the same time if two players declare for scoop with the same low and one had a flush and one had a straight, would the flush scoop it all?
Also what would happen if all 3 players declared "scoop" for some reason, there would be no winner. Just to reveal more flaws about declare games.
I am guessing arbitrating these situations is why declare games have fallen out of favor.
On the other hand, if the condition is "have the best hand both ways" instead of "win" (which is apparently not the custom based on comments) then I argue "C" gets 3/4 and the equal low gets 1/4, or alternatively "C" scoops for having the best hands both ways and players declaring for both have precedence over players declaring for half.
I am going to see if Robert's covers declare games now.
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Legend5555
Full House
Either C wins nothing or wins high splits low. I've done it both ways.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
Nothing in Robert's about HiLo Declare that I can find. I am going older-school and finding my "Play According to Hoyle" book. (NOTE I don't seem to actually have that book right now, going to have to see if it's at my brother's place next time I'm there.)
https://web.archive.org/web/20191125054549/http://www.pokercoach.us/RobsPkrRulesHome.htm
I am hoping to find a flowchart like what @Shaggy said.
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Wow, and I though "declare" games were stupid before I read this. Double down!Yep, in "declare" if you are going to try to scoop, you must win both sides outright. This is the gambol part of the scoop
OP
OP
DarkHelmet55
Pair
Sorry again for the confusion. Player A still wins low because he declared low. If Player C also declared only low then they would both get 1/4.
You dont have to win outright unless you declare both. This is explicit every time the game is dealt by saying if you go both you MUST win both. I should have used a better example where the low was not a tie (even though that does happen too).
To put it another way to show a flaw of going both and not outright winning both, what would stop someone from having a royal and a measly 8 low and going both ways if they werent penalized for trying that? As others have said thats the gambol in a declare game. You might not like it or want to play it but its just an added element to it.
You dont have to win outright unless you declare both. This is explicit every time the game is dealt by saying if you go both you MUST win both. I should have used a better example where the low was not a tie (even though that does happen too).
To put it another way to show a flaw of going both and not outright winning both, what would stop someone from having a royal and a measly 8 low and going both ways if they werent penalized for trying that? As others have said thats the gambol in a declare game. You might not like it or want to play it but its just an added element to it.
Sorry, I'm already designing my next inlay project:
"Cricket's Crack House Poker"
with bottom rocker:
NO DECLARE GAMES
Everywhere I've ever played, a player declaring both has to win both *outright*. That's the key word. It's either scoop, or nothing.
Yeah, I realized that was a thing reading some responses. Myself, I’ve only ever played games where the cards read
OP
OP
DarkHelmet55
Pair
Alright alright I get it, 90% of PCFers hate declare games. I give. I wont bring it up again.
Don't be discouraged by the shitposting, declare games can be a lot of fun and they're just missing out.
Natskule
3 of a Kind
It deviates more from poker and more of a gamble.
I've played it, will play it again, but not with serious money.
We play way worse junk. Like 7 or 17 on or in between, stop and go, count the red.
But they can be fun and we drink a lot, and don't really worry about who wins.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
I don't think it's possible in 7 cards
. And I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't lose if they are beaten outright for low by declaring both. But there apparently are legitimate variants either way, and I get that it's unsettling that someone can have the best hand killed because of a tie. But you are also in a situation where if a player going for both having a royal and outright the best low gets nothing because someone declaring high only has a royal and an inferior low.I guess as long as all the situations are planned for, play your game. I think the link @Shaggy shared is invaluable to defining the possible variants so you can be clear on your rules at the outset to avoid the controversy.
If you don't already have a rule on what happens when everyone goes for both and different players hold the best hand each direction, you should probably consider that at least from the link.
Rhodeman77
Straight Flush
So what happens if the hand is heads up and both players declare they are going. For both and they have the same low but different highs?
What happens to the pot?
What if they both declare high and have the same hand?
What happens to the low 1/2 of the pot?
These game’s have so many strange possibilities that don’t need to happen.
What happens to the pot?
What if they both declare high and have the same hand?
What happens to the low 1/2 of the pot?
These game’s have so many strange possibilities that don’t need to happen.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
There is a variant in the link Shaggy shared that would say declare rules do not apply if all players declare both. That seems simple and fair rather than the rink that no one wins if the best hands each way are in different hands.
I assume this becomes High-takes all if no one declares low. If both declare high with the same high, I think they would chop, which does seem contrary to no chops are paid in the rules for declaring both.
I think a lot of these hypotheticals are extremely rare if not impossible events. Most of the time going both ways will be with a low straight, or near nut low with a flush in a stud games. But again, in those games you have a lot of information on your opponents so it's going to be very rare when two players think they can scoop the other both ways.
The other game people are talking about is 5 card draw, so in order to tie one side...you're going to have the same 5 cards. And most of the time that will probably mean you both have a low straight. I guess the only possibility is a two guys having say 23456 and one has a straight flush? In which case I'd just say when HU and both go both ways, it's just going to play out as a regular hi/lo game. Chop the low and the higher high wins the other half. More often than not it would be something like both having a low straight, so it just gets chopped.
AWenger
Full House
Great find. I just read the post in the link -- rec.gambling.poker FAQ -- this is a very good description of the variations of house rules for declare.
What is Hi-Lo declare? What if someone declares both ways but ties?
What is Hi-Lo declare? What if someone declares both ways but ties?
Last updated: Jan 2002
...
There are several ways that the hand can be declared. One of the most popular is to declare simultaneously with chips. Each player secretly conceals chips in their hand; then at the same time all players open their hands to reveal their declaration. Common systems for chip declare include using number of chips (for instance, no chips means low, one chip means high, two chips means both ways),
...
If someone declares "both ways" (also called a "hogger"), things get more complicated. If the "both ways" player has the best high and the best low hand, then they win the whole pot. If they are beat in either direction, however, they win none of the pot. What happens if they have the best high but are beat low, or have the best low but are beat high is a matter of house rules (and can be a matter of great dispute if the players have not agreed beforehand).
...
Another important variation in the rules to know about for declaring both ways is whether a both ways declarer is allowed to tie on either side. In some houses, the both ways declarer must win both sides free and clear, or get none of the pot. For instance if player A declares both ways, and player B declares high, and they both have the same straight, then player A gets nothing. Other houses allow the both ways declarer to get shares if the pot if they tie on one side (as long as they win or tie on the other as well). For instance if Player A declares both ways, and player B declares high, and they both have they same straight, then A would get 3/4 of the pot (all of low and half of high), and B would get 1/4 (half of the high).
...
In summary, Hi-Lo declare is popular and can add fun and variety to your home game, but arguments are best avoided by clarifying the particular house rules and unusual situations in advance.
Apparently dangerous in the dumb declare world.
CrazyEddie
Full House
Fuck these guys. Play what you like and don't worry about anyone else's opinion. And post about it on the forum whenever you please. You'll get a bunch of people pissing in your cheerios; just ignore them. Other people will engage with your post, answer your questions, and appreciate the conversation.
But as far as rules go: there is no standard when it comes to declare, so make damn sure that everyone you're playing with - including new people playing their first game with your group - are completely solid on what the rules are in your game. For that matter, make sure you're solid too. Declare is complicated and confusing and is played many different ways, so there might be corner cases that you haven't completely considered. Those corner cases will come up, and they'll lead to twenty minutes of shouting. I recommend you stick with the very simplest declare rules that you can write down, then write them down and make sure everyone in your game has read them at least once.
If your OP was asking "which is the right outcome" then there is no answer, because it depends on the rules, and the rules could be anything because there is no official authoritative source for what the right declare rule is. If your OP was asking "what declare rules do you like" then you'll mostly get "declare sucks" as the answer. But a few people do like it and do play it; don't be surprised if they play it differently than you do, though.
CrazyEddie
Full House
Said with love in my heart.
OP
OP
DarkHelmet55
Pair
No worries we will still be playing it. We have been for 35 years. Its the guys that play with us and have been for only 15 years that complain about it every time the game is called. My rules are clear, I just wanted to know if anyone else played the other way. And It looks as if most (that dont hate declare games) and understand about going both agree that the hand not winning both outright is disqualified. Thanks for the votes.
Papasatyr
Two Pair
I would argue that player C wins the high and splits the low. The condition, or “contract”, of his declaration is that he must win both the high and low, which he did. An extension to this thinking: two players tie for declared high, they don’t both lose on the grounds of neither outright winning the high.
However, had Player C won the high and outright lost the low, he wins neither because his “contract” is to win both or nothing.
OP
OP
DarkHelmet55
Pair
I see your argument but that wasnt the question on the table. It wasnt even a discussion that a tie can be looked at like a win. A tie is a tie and not a win. So Player C did not win the low. And yes of course if two players tie for high they split that part of the pot. There is not a stipulation that they must win it outright. The only stipulation is if you go both ways.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
I taught my five year old how to play go fish a few weeks ago, and now we play most every night. There's more strategy than I remember there being.
I'd be down a ton of money if we were playing for money
.I just read through this again and a month later, it’s still very frustrating.
I try to put aside my frustrations and get on board and think about how I’d approach these situations and it just gets more frustrating.
I’m not trying to be a jerk this time, I’m just saying, for the sake of science or whatever, that the confusion and frustration is real.
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