Cash Game Having to show cards during all ins? (2 Viewers)

[Hairy_Crocodile]

Hey all!

Have an interesting spot here. I just witnessed a huge argument between players at a 25c/50c game.

They are getting into a shouting match about whether cards need to be revealed during an all in by the players or not.

One side says both players must show if one is all in no matter what.

The other side says you can hold and muck, and that there is no requirement to show.

Who is correct?

I thought that the only times you ever have to show are in tournaments, whereas in cash you are able to hold and muck of you so choose.

I'm surprised this game devolved into what it has tbh. Lots of drama going on other than this as well.

Lots of suckouts by the annoying atc player that talks trash isnt helping either...lol.

 

[HaRDHouSeiNC]

I made them flip cards in my tournaments to run the cards.

more of a house rule.

 

[kaimat]

My understanding is the last person to make an aggressive action (either a raise or an initial bet) must show first. If the other player has a losing hand they can certainly muck. That's how we player here, but we definitely don't abide by any "official rules."

If the winning player is whining I'd tell him to take the chips and stfu lol. He won the chips, what does it matter?

 

[HaRDHouSeiNC]

If the runout is done then TECHNICALLY the person who was called if there was action it’s on them to show after the other player calls.

if it’s check down on the River action to show proceeds in the betting order aka UTG shows first

 

[Hairy_Crocodile]

My understanding is the last person to make an aggressive action (either a raise or an initial bet) must show first. If the other player has a losing hand they can certainly muck. That's how we player here, but we definitely don't abide by any "official rules."

If the winning player is whining I'd tell him to take the chips and stfu lol. He won the chips, what does it matter?

What started it was 2 players all in on the flop and people wanted to hold, and then one of the louder mouthed players said that they both had to show before the turn and river came and that he "just looked at up on his phone"

Edit: it was on the flop

 

[HaRDHouSeiNC]

What started it was 2 players all in on the flop and people wanted to hold, and then one of the louder mouthed players said that they both had to show before the turn and river came and that he "just looked at up on his phone"

Edit: it was on the flop

I think that’s a house rule more or less.
Ours we always made them flip to run the cards.
I don’t get the need to wait to show or not like you went all in.

 

[davislane]

tournaments, the all in player/s and the caller open their cards in that situation.

In a cash game its not a requirement. The player who calls the all in doesnt have to show their cards unless they want to claim the pot. The player who is called generally will have to open first to claim the pot allowing the player who called to muck their cards if they wish. Alternatively if the player who called opens their cards first for whatever reason and is the winning hand, then the player who was called will generally muck their hand without exposing it.

 

[Quicksilver-75]

If one guy raised after the flop, another called and the rest folded and there isn’t any other action other than the turning of the turn and River cards, both players should open up their hole cards without delay.

 

[jja412]

What @davislane said: In cash games, a player can fold without revealing.
Raiser shows first if they are both shy / ignorant about it.
In tourney, all-in showdowns both reveal immediately.

 

[Eloe2000]

We have always played whoever bet/raised last must show after the river if they want to be eligible to win the pot. If they show, the other players can muck or show. I thought that was the standard rule as well.

 

[upNdown]

Yup, that’s a tournament rule

 

[surfik]

I made them flip cards in my tournaments to run the cards.

more of a house rule.

Did the same for the same reason

 

[buzzmonkey]

Robert's Rules
The Showdown

5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that has been called, even if the opponent’s hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

This is designed to prevent collusion or chip dumping. A losing player has the right to muck a hand they've called with and forfeit their chance at the pot. But if you took last aggressive action your hand should be turned over.

 

[Machine]

Alright, so this is a bit of a hot button for me. There isn't anything that I think defines explicitly what I would consider clear.

My issue isn't about a hand being called up, but would live under the same umbrella of rules. I think Robert's Rules are okay, but prefer Cooke's rules.

I think you have an adequate response, but I've played with a dude who likes to slow role. Here's the situation.

I was behind the guy, he was first to act, it was the turn, and he checked, I move all in, and he calls. Next card, the river comes. Who's earnest is it to show?

Well internet can be wishy washy imo, never the less I'm not a jackass so its fine, I put my money in with the best hand (the nuts on the turn), I typically won't call off hundreds for a 6 outer in PLO.

I carry a copy of Cooke's rules on me, and its what I go off of, the 'Charity Games' houseman doesn't give af at all.

The correct answer is, as there was no action on the river it (earnest to show) moves from the SB to the button. The compelling argument is the last aggressive action vs left of the button.

According to Cooke:
If there has been no bet on the final round then the showdown begins with the player who had the obligation of first action on the final betting round

The rub is there was no possible action, the guy hit and slow rolled it.

I am typically objective or can be even against my personal opinion, I think I'm being objective when I say the guy is a real piece of shit, in case I'm not, literally 6 of the other players expressed distain for him as well. What do you think, am I aright, or wrong (about the technical aspect, not of his character)? =)

 

[Highli99]

I just show. I don't care if i get slow rolled. but cash and tournament are treated differently for sure. In a cash game i'll show and let the better muck if i have it. In a tournment hands should be tabled for integrity.

 

[EnjoyLife]

What @davislane said: In cash games, a player can fold without revealing.
Raiser shows first if they are both shy / ignorant about it.
In tourney, all-in showdowns both reveal immediately.

No raiser on river, so should go in position order then, correct?

 

[EnjoyLife]

I just show, if I believe that I am going to be the winner

 

[Frogzilla]

The side saying you can muck is correct

 

[utgtrash]

In tournaments it is to prevent chip dumping. In cash it’s correct to allow mucking and obviously you must show to claim the pot. You can see this on the hustler live streams we have been watching - when they are all in and run once twice etc they do not show until it is time to award the pot. This is standard in cash.

 

[Josh Kifer]

tournaments, the all in player/s and the caller open their cards in that situation.

In a cash game its not a requirement. The player who calls the all in doesnt have to show their cards unless they want to claim the pot. The player who is called generally will have to open first to claim the pot allowing the player who called to muck their cards if they wish. Alternatively if the player who called opens their cards first for whatever reason and is the winning hand, then the player who was called will generally muck their hand without exposing it.

This.

 

[CrazyEddie]

For tournaments, everyone must show their hands right away. TDA Rules say:

16: Face Up for All-Ins
All hands will be tabled wíthout delay once a player is all-in and all betting action by all other players in the hand is complete. No player who is either all-in or has called all betting action may muck his or her hand without tabling. All hands in both the main and side pot(s) must be tabled and are live.

For cash, anyone may keep their hand face-down for as long as they wish and may muck them unshown, although of course anyone who wishes to claim the pot must show their hand. Robert's Rules say:

THE SHOWDOWN
8. [..] A player may opt to throw his hand away after all the betting for the deal is over, rather than compete to win the pot.

There are further rules in Robert's Rules which deal with who has the obligation to show first under what circumstances, but the basic question that the OP's players were arguing over is easily resolved: In a tournament, everyone shows. In cash, you don't have to show.

There is, however, also this rule:

Robert's Rules
The Showdown

5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that has been called, even if the opponent’s hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.

This is designed to prevent collusion or chip dumping.

So even if a player in a cash game elects to muck their hand, the other players (any players in the hand, not just those in the showdown! and also not just during all-ins, but in any hand that goes to a showdown!) are entitled to see those mucked cards. But it's essential to understand that they are not entitled to see them as a routine matter during the normal course of play. Asking to see the mucked cards should only be done to address concerns about collusion. As the rule states: "This is a privilege that may be revoked if abused." This cash game rule should not be confused with the tournament rule that requires all players to expose their hands during an all-in.

 

[legonick]

I made them flip cards in my tournaments to run the cards.

more of a house rule.

I do this too for tournaments.

Adds a lot of fun when the entire table can sweat the run-out. Also good for helping players learn hands and what "outs" are available etc.

It's a house rule for me, and a damn good one!

 

[TurboKitty]

In cash games, players can choose to muck. However, if the other player asks to see their opponents hand. then the dealer should flip it over.