Have Chinese cards mold replica sets gone too far? (13 Viewers)

[ninedeuce]

You mean like this?

https://www.pokerchipforum.com/thre...n-chips-for-the-home-market.11720/post-181205

My full quote was about fooling collectors, not casinos. But your link got me thinking.

In general, I have zero sympathy for the plight of large casinos. So when I first read that story, I was like, "Who cares? Maryland Live will be fine, no one was really harmed."

But then I thought about more "mom and pop" gambling like they have in bars/restaurants in Washington. Not sure if they have insurance for those kinds of things or not, but being bilked out of $25K (much less $1M) could ruin them.

I really, really like the Tina cards mold chips. It's not healthy for most folks to spend thousands of dollars on poker chips for home games, and these chips are a great option, maybe the best option.

But I also agree that if they get the copying to the point where folks can be committing any kind of fraud with them, the copying has gone too far and needs to be dialed back.

 

[SeanGecko]

It’s not lost on me that you, the godfather of PCF cardsmolds, is one of the few people who has made original chips. And they’re great. But it seems like the vast majority of people took that ball and instead of running with it, drooled “duh we can copy everything!”

I meant the burros ones specifically. What's the story there. I'm ignorant on the Burros history.

 

[upNdown]

I meant the burros ones specifically. What's the story there. I'm ignorant on the Burros history.

Oh, I don’t even remember their history. I used to own 20-30 of the fivers which I had in a heads up set, so they catch my attention. But I think I’ve only ever seen one guy with playable racks of them. So they’re special and unique. And when I see special, unique chips like that straight up copied onto cheap ceramics, it cheapens the design to me - it’s far less special when you see them.
If that attitude makes me a jerk, oh well, it’s probably just one on a sizable list.

 

[Marc Hedrick]

Oh, I don’t even remember their history. I used to own 20-30 of the fivers which I had in a heads up set, so they catch my attention. But I think I’ve only ever seen one guy with playable racks of them. So they’re special and unique. And when I see special, unique chips like that straight up copied onto cheap ceramics, it cheapens the design to me - it’s far less special when you see them.
If that attitude makes me a jerk, oh well, it’s probably just one on a sizable list.

I don't think that attitude/opinion makes you a jerk.

But someone who wants the Tina replicas because they can't afford the real set (or any other reason, really -- except to scam someone) also isn't a jerk.

 

[Lil Tuna]

Oh, I don’t even remember their history. I used to own 20-30 of the fivers which I had in a heads up set, so they catch my attention. But I think I’ve only ever seen one guy with playable racks of them. So they’re special and unique. And when I see special, unique chips like that straight up copied onto cheap ceramics, it cheapens the design to me - it’s far less special when you see them.
If that attitude makes me a jerk, oh well, it’s probably just one on a sizable list.

I believe the Burros were designed and ordered by “Mr. Donkey” from that other site CD from a few years back.
Goes by @RainmanTrail here.

 

[upNdown]

I believe the Burros were designed and ordered by “Mr. Donkey” from that other site CD from a few years back.
Goes by @RainmanTrail here.

Those were Binions tributes - 43mm hybrids. I had a set. I sold. I miss.
But yeah, the burrow Inn was something different. Pretty shaped inlay leaded THCs.

 

[TX_Golf_N_Poker]

Oh, I don’t even remember their history. I used to own 20-30 of the fivers which I had in a heads up set, so they catch my attention. But I think I’ve only ever seen one guy with playable racks of them. So they’re special and unique. And when I see special, unique chips like that straight up copied onto cheap ceramics, it cheapens the design to me - it’s far less special when you see them.
If that attitude makes me a jerk, oh well, it’s probably just one on a sizable list.

You're definitely not a jerk. And in spite of my smart ass comment earlier, your input here is appreciated and valued.

But here's how I see the Burro Inn situation. We have an incredibly obscure casino that almost no one has heard of. Gonna be honest, I thought the designs in that GB were originals... The original chips only exist in a tiny number - by your admission one guy has a few racks. You had a barrel or so once. According to The Chip Guide, there are only TWO DENOMINATIONS. $5s and $25s. So I'm not sure that even qualifies as an option to be a playable set.

So why the heck NOT create a tribute set? Fill in the missing denominations, and put something out that is playable, so that more people know about the original? If anything, that creates interest in the originals and potentially adds value to them. I can't come up with any rational thought on how any of these tribute sets cheapen the originals. I don't understand that argument at all, and it's been used in this thread many times. If you can explain your logic for that contention, I would honestly love to hear it.

To me, tributes create interest. More people find out about these cool old sets, and then want to see or possibly own some of the originals to show their friends what their tribute set is patterned after. No cards mold copy can hold a candle to a leaded THC Paulson clay chip. I personally have sought out actual Aria Casino chips after spending a huge amount of time developing, collecting and selling Aria's cards mold tributes. I cannot see how a single cards mold tribute has hurt the market for the real thing. Just the opposite. Because buyers of inexpensive starter chips that hang around here long enough, eventually want better chips. That's what has happened to me, and I've seen it happen to dozens of other new members that have joined PCF after me.

 

[TheOffalo]

Second @TX_Golf_N_Poker. For myself at least, owning the NCC cards molds got me into exploring the history of the real New China Club chips. I have a very small handful of the real chips and am slowly adding to it, but it'll likely never be a playable set. It also got me started looking at other TRK chips and older Reno casinos in general, so cards mold tributes definitely increased my interest in the real thing!

 

[BGinGA]

I can't come up with any rational thought on how any of these tribute sets cheapen the originals. I don't understand that argument at all, and it's been used in this thread many times. If you can explain your logic for that contention, I would honestly love to hear it.

To me, tributes create interest. More people find out about these cool old sets, and then want to see or possibly own some of the originals to show their friends what their tribute set is patterned after.

Tribute sets create interest, sure....but direct copies aren't tributes to the original chips. They are just rip-off copies, usually of somebody's intellectual property.

And they do diminish the value of the originals -- it's simple economics. For every buyer of a direct copy set, that's one less potential buyer for a real set. Less potential buyers means less demand. And less demand for a set equates to a lower price.

 

[Marc Hedrick]

Tribute sets create interest, sure....but direct copies aren't tributes to the original chips. They are just rip-off copies, usually of somebody's intellectual property.

And they do diminish the value of the originals -- it's simple economics. For every buyer of a direct copy set, that's one less potential buyer for a real set. Less potential buyers means less demand. And less demand for a set equates to a lower price.

I don't think this takes into account all the variables.

By your first line you say that tribute sets create interest. Interest that wouldn't have been there in many cases if the tribute set (or copy, etc) wasn't there in the first place. Those buyers may become potential buyers of the originals at some point.

Secondly, there are many buyers who simply can't afford or who won't spend the money for the originals. In many cases it would be tens of thousands of dollars to create an original set of many Tina replicas. That is a completely different market from someone buying a $300 set, with very little overlap, IMO.

 

[chipinla]

Tribute sets create interest, sure....but direct copies aren't tributes to the original chips. They are just rip-off copies, usually of somebody's intellectual property.

And they do diminish the value of the originals -- it's simple economics. For every buyer of a direct copy set, that's one less potential buyer for a real set. Less potential buyers means less demand. And less demand for a set equates to a lower price.

Your profile pic is a direct copy of someone’s IP. Does that diminish the movie Avatar?

 

[Quicksilver-75]

If it's a tribute set, make them a tribute set. Simple as that. Don't just rip off the exact chip, art ect. and pass them off as tributes. That's bullshit. I see way too many "tribute" sets circulating that are just direct copies of protected art. Sad really. That a group of people who claim to love the hobby and items so much have such little respect for the people and corporations that provide them.

My 2c.

 

[ekricket]

Your profile pic is a direct copy of someone’s IP. Does that diminish the movie Avatar?

I don’t watch that movie anymore because of his avatar

Actually IMHO, I think those movies are pretty racist. That’s the real reason I don’t watch them anymore.

 

[BGinGA]

I don't think this takes into account all the variables.

By your first line you say that tribute sets create interest. Interest that wouldn't have been there in many cases if the tribute set (or copy, etc) wasn't there in the first place. Those buyers may become potential buyers of the originals at some point.

Secondly, there are many buyers who simply can't afford or who won't spend the money for the originals. In many cases it would be tens of thousands of dollars to create an original set of many Tina replicas. That is a completely different market from someone buying a $300 set, with very little overlap, IMO.

I get your point (and fully expected the counter), but there's still plenty of overlap. People who would save up to get a set of PCAs, Aztars, fill-in-the-blank-chips, if it were their only option. Being able to buy a cheap direct copy essentially removes them from the market for originals, lessening the demand.

 

[chipinla]

I don’t watch that movie anymore because of his avatar

Actually IMHO, I think those movies are pretty racist. That’s the real reason I don’t watch them anymore.

Laughing at the first part so you know ha.

 

[Chipandchair]

my cards mold chips are tributes and I was never in the market for Starlites but do have Chicago Starlites below

 

[ekricket]

I get your point (and fully expected the counter), but there's still plenty of overlap. People who would save up to get a set of PCAs, Aztars, fill-in-the-blank-chips, if it were their only option. Being able to buy a cheap direct copy essentially removes them from the market for originals, lessening the demand.

You can’t sell casino used Aztar sets anymore. Not even at old TCR prices. There’s no demand.

 

[BGinGA]

Your profile pic is a direct copy of someone’s IP. Does that diminish the movie Avatar?

It would, if clicking my Avatar avatar directed you to a link where you could buy a cheap copy of the film.

But as a stand-alone image, it falls under fair use provisions. And according to @ChipGuide, since it's been cropped and resized, it now belongs to me and I have copyright (total rubbish, btw).

 

[BGinGA]

my cards mold chips are tributes and I was never in the market for Starlites but do have Chicago Starlites below
View attachment 1101092

Exactly. Tribute sets are great.

 

[Chipandchair]

You can’t sell casino used Aztar sets anymore. Not even at old TCR prices. There’s no demand.

You selling?

 

[Mojo1312]

I get your point (and fully expected the counter), but there's still plenty of overlap. People who would save up to get a set of PCAs, Aztars, fill-in-the-blank-chips, if it were their only option. Being able to buy a cheap direct copy essentially removes them from the market for originals, lessening the demand.

The problem with reading posts online is you are unable to see if the author behind the keyboard is wearing a straight face.

 

[upNdown]

The problem with reading posts online is you are unable to see if the author behind the keyboard is wearing a straight face.

I know, right?

Your profile pic is a direct copy of someone’s IP. Does that diminish the movie Avatar?

 

[Marc Hedrick]

I get your point (and fully expected the counter), but there's still plenty of overlap. People who would save up to get a set of PCAs, Aztars, fill-in-the-blank-chips, if it were their only option. Being able to buy a cheap direct copy essentially removes them from the market for originals, lessening the demand.

I can understand this point as well. I guess where we differ is that I would argue there are less people like this than people who would be brought to the market because of the cheaper options. The more people in the market overall the better, IMO. But I can definitely understand the copyright arguments and anyone who can't isn't thinking much. I just choose to not let it bother me, I guess.

 

[aggie]

"Tribute"

 

[chipinla]

I know, right?

 

[Moxie Mike]

...but direct copies aren't tributes to the original chips. They are just rip-off copies, usually of somebody's intellectual property.

And they do diminish the value of the originals -- it's simple economics. For every buyer of a direct copy set, that's one less potential buyer for a real set.

Is it really fair to compare the two? Just because they are visibly very similar the two products are nowhere near the same.

I think the same argument applies to knock-off Rolexes. Knock offs (which is pretty much what the CM replicas are if we're being honest) are specifically for people who can't afford the real thing but want to pretend.

You could look at the luxury car market the same way. 4 years ago I bought a BMW that was 5 years old at the time. My purchase of a pre-owned car doesn't diminish the demand for new ones. Furthermore, while I've never passed my car off as new - it's still a BMW.

 

[chipinla]

 

[theshepherd]

You're definitely not a jerk. And in spite of my smart ass comment earlier, your input here is appreciated and valued.

But here's how I see the Burro Inn situation. We have an incredibly obscure casino that almost no one has heard of. Gonna be honest, I thought the designs in that GB were originals... The original chips only exist in a tiny number - by your admission one guy has a few racks. You had a barrel or so once. According to The Chip Guide, there are only TWO DENOMINATIONS. $5s and $25s. So I'm not sure that even qualifies as an option to be a playable set.

So why the heck NOT create a tribute set? Fill in the missing denominations, and put something out that is playable, so that more people know about the original? If anything, that creates interest in the originals and potentially adds value to them. I can't come up with any rational thought on how any of these tribute sets cheapen the originals. I don't understand that argument at all, and it's been used in this thread many times. If you can explain your logic for that contention, I would honestly love to hear it.

To me, tributes create interest. More people find out about these cool old sets, and then want to see or possibly own some of the originals to show their friends what their tribute set is patterned after. No cards mold copy can hold a candle to a leaded THC Paulson clay chip. I personally have sought out actual Aria Casino chips after spending a huge amount of time developing, collecting and selling Aria's cards mold tributes. I cannot see how a single cards mold tribute has hurt the market for the real thing. Just the opposite. Because buyers of inexpensive starter chips that hang around here long enough, eventually want better chips. That's what has happened to me, and I've seen it happen to dozens of other new members that have joined PCF after me.

Add me to the camp that thought Burro Inn was someone's originals... I agree that more chippers would be likely to buy an original Burro Inn chip (if any quantity exist out there) after this group buy than before.

Apples and oranges from, say, Aria chips.

 

[BGinGA]

Is it really fair to compare the two? Just because they are visibly very similar the two products are nowhere near the same.

I think it is. Even though the originals and the direct copies are different products, owning either one can 'scratch the same itch'.

And it's not just a difference in cost, but also a difference in availability. For example:

Assume there are 10 identical sets of a given closed casino's chips in existence. Also assume that there are 20 other collectors who would like to own one of those sets. Those 10 sets will all sell for roughly the same price when a current owner decides to sell, sometimes for more If two or more non-owners get into a bidding war to be one of the exclusive owners.

Meanwhile, somebody makes a direct copy of the chips, and sells 30 sets. A number of those 20 collectors buy the copies, and are now happy because they 'finally got a set of fill-in-the-blanks'.

They are no longer in the market for the real chips, as their price wasn't as important as was their availability. But now their absence from the market will have an effect on the demand for the real chips, and thus also affect the price.

 

[Quicksilver-75]

You could look at the luxury car market the same way. 4 years ago I bought a BMW that was 5 years old at the time. My purchase of a pre-owned car doesn't diminish the demand for new ones. Furthermore, while I've never passed my car off as new - it's still a BMW.

Really? I think your example is a little ridiculous. We aren't talking about new or used here. But to keep with what you're trying to say, this is far more akin to somebody putting Farrari emblems on a converted Pontiac Fiero and calling that a tribute. Which is more an insult to the manufacturer than a tribute.
But to circle back to your claim of diminishment, buying a used car of any brand is still support of that brand. Where as, actively seeking a blatant ripoff is a detrement and only serves to hurt the brand you claim to admire.
And making more and more cheap knockoffs readily available only exacerbates that.