Getting New Players to Come Back (1 Viewer)

MrCatPants

Full House
Joined
Jun 24, 2017
Messages
3,598
Reaction score
8,998
Location
Houston, Texas
I've been building my list slowly out of people I know and vouched for referrals from trusted regulars, and am up to about 25 people who're on my list who've at least attended once in the last two months.

That said, my group is a pretty experienced, pretty solid playing group for the most part - only a few regular losers (who frankly aren't all that bad of players, just not as strong as some of the others.)

That said, my issue is that newbies to the table are getting cleaned out on their first visit like clockwork. Still, about half of those are coming back - but half aren't.

We're almost to the point where we are filling up each game - but not quite there - so would like to get a few more regulars/semi-regulars on my list.

Question to the group - is that a normal rate of adding to the game, in your experience? Or are my newbie losses causing me retention problems (and if so, any thoughts as to what I can do about it?)
 
When I was growing my game I would try to run two tables... the newbie table and the experienced table. They were completely different styles of play, and I think the guests appreciated that. When some folks felt comfortable, they would step up to the "experienced" table. I also did lose some newbies who never caught on to some of the finer nuances of the game, but that's how home games go.
 
The tourney shouldn't be a problem, but NLHE can be a very expensive and quick lesson for a novice.
I'm guessing you lose more newbies playing cash than tourney

It's actually been the opposite, but small sample size. We control the losses a bit by standardizing the buy-ins at $40. It's mainly people who don't understand pot odds and think a 3x blind bet on the river is intimidating enough for a bluff.
 
If you are losing the new guys over $40 buy-in games then they aren’t much of poker players anyways and it was more likely something just to do that night. People spend more than that for a dinner and few drinks at Longhorn.

Since your already playing very low stakes promote the fun get together aspect. Maybe buy some $1 scratch off loto tickets and throw one in the pot preflop randomly. I have done it with random $10 gift cards I seem to acquire all the time.

Make sure the local sport game is on the tv or radio. Ask the new guys if there is a particular snack or drink they like and have it. Make them feel special. The good players are going to show up no matter what, keeping the losing players is the key.

@Poker Zombie has lots of great ideas and posts on the subject. His best idea is to make it a family affair. Have the wives/GF’s come too. For $40 each it is a cheap fun date night.

Also if you have enough players, limit the number of good players you invite each game so there are less sharks to eat the fish up.
 
If you are losing the new guys over $40 buy-in games then they aren’t much of poker players anyways and it was more likely something just to do that night. People spend more than that for a dinner and few drinks at Longhorn.

Since your already playing very low stakes promote the fun get together aspect. Maybe buy some $1 scratch off loto tickets and throw one in the pot preflop randomly. I have done it with random $10 gift cards I seem to acquire all the time.

Make sure the local sport game is on the tv or radio. Ask the new guys if there is a particular snack or drink they like and have it. Make them feel special. The good players are going to show up no matter what, keeping the losing players is the key.

@Poker Zombie has lots of great ideas and posts on the subject. His best idea is to make it a family affair. Have the wives/GF’s come too. For $40 each it is a cheap fun date night.

Also if you have enough players, limit the number of good players you invite each game so there are less sharks to eat the fish up.


Thanks for the thoughts. I'm wondering if I'm eventually going to have to split off a social game or something. My serious players (including myself) would be fine upping the stakes - it's just tough as it's a standing game with a few regulars who aren't in a position to comfortably do that. Lotto tickets is an interesting thought.
 
Thanks for the thoughts. I'm wondering if I'm eventually going to have to split off a social game or something. My serious players (including myself) would be fine upping the stakes - it's just tough as it's a standing game with a few regulars who aren't in a position to comfortably do that. Lotto tickets is an interesting thought.

All games go through the transition from friends hanging out with poker as just the thing to do, to people that want to play poker seriously. The two can’t stay together for long. The social players will get bored and turned off from losing all the time and want to find something else to do to have fun with their friends. Or the Poker players will get annoyed with the social players and the ultra low stakes. They will get frustrated with how slow the game plays and how they social people aren’t paying attention to the game.

My fiends invite me to “play poker” at one of their homes a few times a year, and I’ll usially go and sink off $20 to hang out with my friends. I don’t take the poker serious otherwise it would drive me crazy.

At the same time I never invite any of them to my serious Poker games. They would never have fun and the money played for would scare most of them.

So if playing higher stakes more serious poker then work on building that game. Maybe on another night or start going every other week with the higher stakes game.
 
I'm just going to throw this out there, $40 is not a lot of play at .50-1 so that's probably shooting the variance way up there. (And probably players are going broke too quickly.) If that's the comfort level, I would suggest playing .25-.50 instead.


This group has historically played pretty small and been trying to step them up. Been wanting to increase the buyins next, but having the issue above.
 
If you're having trouble keeping players I would sooner lower the blinds to a more regular structure (80-100bb) before raising the buy in.

My serious players (including myself) would be fine upping the stakes - it's just tough as it's a standing game with a few regulars who aren't in a position to comfortably do that.

So it sounds like you really have a split camp here.

I think you're heading down the right track of splitting the games.

When I was in college we were hosting two tournaments a week, mostly for $10 (I had 1000 super diamonds in WSOP colors, I thought it was the stone nuts.), but once a month we'd do a 40 or 60 and it was well attended.

Don't risk those on the fence by forcing the increase, but changing one game in 4 to a "high stakes" night may be a good place to start to see where the players stand and it would add a bit of mystique.
 
If you're having trouble keeping players I would sooner lower the blinds to a more regular structure (80-100bb) before raising the buy in.



So it sounds like you really have a split camp here.

I think you're heading down the right track of splitting the games.

When I was in college we were hosting two tournaments a week, mostly for $10 (I had 1000 super diamonds in WSOP colors, I thought it was the stone nuts.), but once a month we'd do a 40 or 60 and it was well attended.

Don't risk those on the fence by forcing the increase, but changing one game in 4 to a "high stakes" night may be a good place to start to see where the players stand and it would add a bit of mystique.

I like that trial balloon. That way if it falls flat, it won't kill the game.
 
I agree with many of the comments above. It appears to me you have two very different groups of players, and they aren't ever likely to mix well. You might have the occasional newbie who becomes a serious player, but he's usually only going to do that when he experiences a lot of success, then he moves up. If he never experiences that success, he never becomes a serious player. If that guy starts with sharks, he'll get eaten before he can play with the big boys. That makes two different games a solution.

Saying that, I'm wondering this. If you are a serious player, and for you a social game would be a big step down and you would be board, is a "starter" game something you want? It's really hard to have a starter game with more than one or two serious players and they will basically eat everyone else's stacks. If starting players never experience winning, they aren't going to enjoy poker for long.

I'll share what I was taught many moons ago about buy-ins. As what I see for cash games doesn't even come close to what I was taught, I'm not sure where it fits, but I'll share it. I have an idea at the end tied to that.

Cash games
For limit poker, how many betting rounds does the average game have? The types of games you play will matter too. Draw with 2 betting rounds will not need as many chips as a game with 4 or more betting rounds. Seven card stud has 5 betting rounds. If you start playing with twists and stingers (switching a card or adding a card), you add betting rounds. I've played a version of a game called Texas Tech or double-barreled shotgun with 8 planned rounds of betting. That's expensive for anything less than 60x the limit and it needs 100x if played often. With limits you also have to consider the maximum number of raises. The higher that number is, the higher the "x factor" needs to be. A starting stack of 40-60 maximum bets gives plenty of room for play with 2-4 betting rounds. 30x might work for only a couple of betting rounds, but less than that is going to increase variance. The less serious the players are, the more important the formulas are because less serious players are likely to see bigger losses, and they aren't prepared for multiple buy-ins.

When you get to the no limit, you don't know the max bet. So you look at the ante or big blind, and multiply the limit formula by 50%.

Here's an example of the lowest level game using this formula. $.01 ante; $.10 limit. $4-6 buy-in depending on games played. If it's $.01 ante; $.25 limit, $10-15 buy-in. That game with 7-card stud or comparable number of betting rounds only should probably be a $15-20 buy-in.

So when you go $.50/$1, this formula will have a buy-in of $400-600 for $10 limit; no limit maybe up to $1000. That's a pretty serious game. Most of what I hear about at that level has buy-ins nowhere near that. To me, that means new players are just tossing their money away.

Tournaments
Tournaments are different. I'd say 3 factors are critical. You can structure a good game from 100BB to 500BB for say 4 hours, and it not be a luck fest. The blind increases and length of rounds can determine that. Freeze out vs. re-buys must be figured in. The big factors between a social and serious game are going to be the buy-in and number of payouts. Tournaments for more serious players have higher buy-ins and fewer payouts percentage-wise.

Knowing what kind of players you have
Players play poker for all kinds of reasons, but I think generally they can be classified along the spectrum of social to serious to professional. The further apart they are on the scale, the less likely they are to mix.

Idea -- The "baseball" system
Professional baseball has the major leagues, AAA, AA, A, and maybe Rookie league. Applied to poker, you run or know of others who will run games at various levels. I'll call them A-Z. As players have the kind of success that makes them want to move up, there is another game for them to fit into. Every player has a "A" level for them, but it isn't the same for all players. Your A game might be another guy's F game. The spectrum in poker is huge.

If you are a major leaguer, and you want to increase the number of major leaguers, those players have to be developed. The guy who might do well in the Rookie game won't do well at the Major level. Going there to early might keep him from ever getting there. Most poker players don't think along the lines of dozens of levels, but along 3-5 levels.

I knew a guy who hosted 4 games. He called his A, B, C, and Fun. Fun players never got invited to A or B games. He never had them more than 1 level above where they were a regular, except for himself. When he had a Fun player who experienced success, and expressed a desire for more, he got invited to the C game. He didn't even know there was an A or B game. If he became a regular at the C game, and wanted more, then he learned of the B game. He told me his system was like a pyramid. The candidates for the A game were few. In fact, he said to fill his A game required a B player or two. He had the most players, by far, at the C level. He said the system allowed someone not doing well at a level to be moved down to keep them in the game. He had enough of a relationship with these players they would talk to him if they either weren't doing well or wanted to move up. He would give a player not doing well a tip or two in hopes they improve a little. He made serious money in the A and B game. He told me he made his living in those 2 games and 2 outside games somewhat similar to his A and B games.

Poker seemed to be all he did, though he claimed to run a small company. It was an interesting system he shared. I don't know how much was true, but I've heard of others doing that.

If you are willing to play at widely varying levels, two very different games should work, but you might need a step or two in between to move players from the bottom to the top games.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for the thoughts.

I've got kids at home and so I don't think there'd be anyway I could start hosting at the frequency you describe at the bottom. But the splitting the games is something I think I'm going to have to go for. Only problem is I've got a few players who only want to play tourneys, and a few who only want to play cash.

::sigh:: I think I just have to get the regular player list beefed up by a few more names, and then split things off - likely in the same space long term with two tables running - an A and a B for cash games, and keep the tourneys social. Thanks all.
 
Maybe I can help with that. I'm in the Houston area and would love to be added to list.

Would love to have you - I'm in the Galleria area, so semi-central. PM a good email address to reach you at and I'll add you to our list and let you know about our upcoming games already on the schedule.
 
When I was growing my game I would try to run two tables... the newbie table and the experienced table. They were completely different styles of play, and I think the guests appreciated that. When some folks felt comfortable, they would step up to the "experienced" table. I also did lose some newbies who never caught on to some of the finer nuances of the game, but that's how home games go.

Damn this is a great idea. The issue of new players getting destroyed is common. It is really intimidating for new players to join when they know everyone playing is a 10 year veteran of the game...
 
Damn this is a great idea. The issue of new players getting destroyed is common. It is really intimidating for new players to join when they know everyone playing is a 10 year veteran of the game...

Totally. It's been freaking me out as I expand my game. Two weeks ago I watched a first timer get absolutely destroyed. All I could do was offer him M&Ms from my make-your-own snack mix table. He's actually coming back, though. I've had some others one-and-done with that, though.

And separately, I have some people who would love to socially play for small stakes - but I can't in good conscience bring them to a table with my regulars. Would be great to have a micro-stakes table going at the same time to still keep everyone together.
 
Yeah well my game is 20 NL so it isn't too bad....but still. Some players consistently lose 2 buyins which gets old after a while. If you are running a 100 or 200 NL game then recruiting will be even harder.

Think about it from the non-poker player perspective...they want a fun social event. They don't have a passion for poker. IF it costs them 200 to hang out for an evening that just wont last.
 
I would say host too different games.

Since the first games I hosted I’ve always seemed to have at least two different games. One with my personal friends (adding neighbors recently) and one with more serious cash players. Kind of my friends who I play poker with vs my Poker friends. A few play in both games but the majority totally totally separate.

For the first group we have moved from single table $20 tourneys to $.25/.50 NL with a $40 buying. The second group is $1/2NL with a $300 buy in ( may be reducing that to $220) and occasional a $2/5NL with a $500 buy in

Maybe consider two games with one being tourney style for the newer guys and cash for the others.

Limit cash Holdem is another way to limit losses with newbies....but I doubt they would understand how to play it being NL is all you see on TV. Plus there seems to be an unfortunate stigma with limit holdem

Like someone said, NL cash can be an expensive and shocking learning experience for new players or even older low skilled players.
 
I would recommend doing some learning games with the new players. Invite just them, no money, free tournament. After each hand players reveal their cards and discuss how it was played and why. Give some advice, have them ask questions. They will feel more comfortable with only other new players to ask questions.

Before the local casino opened I had a small group of close players do it for PLO. We played 5c/10c and after each hand talk about why we did what we did. It was a great help to many of us.

You may also want to send them links to to some sites like Live at the Bike YouTube videos or other free videos/bloggers.
 
Limit cash Holdem is another way to limit losses with newbies....but I doubt they would understand how to play it being NL is all you see on TV. Plus there seems to be an unfortunate stigma with limit holdem

Another option would be a spread limit game. Excalibur had (maybe still has) a fun 2-6 spread limit game where you could bet or raise anywhere between 2 and 6 dollars on any street (3 raise limit). Gives a little bit of a taste of no limit while still having the downside protection of a limit game. Also, not having the bet size determined by the street is a lot easier for newbies to understand.
 
For the first group we have moved from single table $20 tourneys to $.25/.50 NL with a $40 buying. The second group is $1/2NL with a $300 buy in ( may be reducing that to $220) and occasional a $2/5NL with a $500 buy in

Curious about the $300 - $220 - what's behind that? Very specific number :)
 
Another option would be a spread limit game. Excalibur had (maybe still has) a fun 2-6 spread limit game where you could bet or raise anywhere between 2 and 6 dollars on any street (3 raise limit). Gives a little bit of a taste of no limit while still having the downside protection of a limit game. Also, not having the bet size determined by the street is a lot easier for newbies to understand.

I like that with the street consistency. I was thinking of doing a limit game occasionally but was worried that some of my players wouldn't understand that the "big bets" weren't all that big in the big picture.
 
FB83284D-F428-4637-A36A-E290CA657096.jpeg


Curious about the $300 - $220 - what's behind that? Very specific number :)

My guess would be that it is easy to count out as host/banker. 2 barrels of $5’s and a barrel of $1’s.

(y) :thumbsup:

Also $200 used to be the max and we changed it last year. Too your theme, not everyone liked that and it was only a few that asked for $300.
 
My group is on the small side, but we've been playing consistently for going on 15 years, starting at the beginning of the boom in 2003. I joined in 2008.

We have two regular games with a lot of overlap:
  • A weekly $15 NLHE tourney which is extremely casual and social. Player skill runs the gamut from utterly horrible to winning casino 2/5NL players. Most everybody wants to play well and win, but they also usually have a good time regardless of short- or long-term results.
  • A monthly .25/.50 NLHE cash game ($60 max buy-in). This game is just as social, but many of the Tuesday night players avoid these games for the usual reasons - they know they're not good enough to hang, they don't want to play at higher stakes, or they simply don't like cash games.
Not much to add other than providing an example that a split group like this can exist long-term.
 

Create an account or login to comment

You must be a member in order to leave a comment

Create account

Create an account and join our community. It's easy!

Log in

Already have an account? Log in here.

Back
Top Bottom