Do people have a problem with these Aria knockoff ceramics? (7 Viewers)

[upNdown]

I don’t want to threadcrap, and I don’t think I’m looking to “shame” anybody, but this has been sitting in the back of my mind for a week, so here it is. I think I have a problem with them. Maybe a few problems. I have no idea if it’s “illegal” to commission these chips - probably not, if they’re for personal use, and nobody’s profiting. But it still doesn’t feel right to do it, just because some Chinese factory doesn’t care.
Slapping Aria’s name on chips just doesn’t seem right, even though there’s probably no chance of ever passing these off as the real deal. Not in the casino, anyway, but maybe on eBay?
Part of my objections might be my own idiosyncrasies - I don’t like fakes and knockoffs. Well executed tributes might be a different story, but I don’t think these are that.
Anyway, if this is trolling, so be it. I put it in off-topic for a reason. But as I said, I don’t like it, and I’m just wondering if I’m alone on this, or what other peoples perspectives are..

 

[PlaidDragon]

I don't necessarily have a "problem" with it. It's just not something I would do myself.

 

[RichMahogany]

I don’t think it’s wise to put Aria on there but I don’t have a problem with it per se.

 

[Poker Zombie]

IMO - tributes are very close to the original, with a glaring difference: the label/inlay says something completely different. Anything else, even a ceramic replica of a clay chip, is a counterfeit - even if it's a poor counterfeit.

A counterfeit chip could be sold on eBay to an uneducated buyer (and the world is full of uneducated buyers). A tribute should be apparent that it is not the real deal, even to a total rube.

Just my 2¢.

 

[BGinGA]

I have no idea if it’s “illegal” to commission these chips - probably not, if they’re for personal use, and nobody’s profiting.

Pretty sure Aria would think it's illegal for a counterfeit chip to be manufactured or sold without their permission, although they may not be overly concerned if it's for personal use (so long as that private use isn't trying to use it in the casino, lol).

And the factory in China is profiting, unless they're really bad businessmen.

Personally, I think they're cool. Just not cool to have made them. Big difference between tribute chips and counterfeit chips, imo, regardless of origin.

 

[CHP TD]

Nup

I think its only you.

I Like them.

I really don't understand your dislike other than a casino that you have nothing to do with might have a problem?

Why is that your problem?

You cant control it - you cant do anything about it - you have nothing to do with it - yet it annoys you?

Maybe this could be useful

God grant me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change
The courage to change the things i can
And the wisdom to know the difference.

 

[pltrgyst]

Well, so far as use of the Aria name and other artistic elements are concerned, these are certainly violations of US trademark law and copyright law. That is fact.

But on this scale, Aria probably doesn't care, unless they're somehow injured directly by someone selling them or passing them off as actual casino chips.

I would be careful using one as a card-capper in the Aria poker room, with all those cameras...

 

[kk405]

I think it would have been better to have called them Ania or Anita as opposed to Aria...Wehn and if an ACF tribute set is ever made, I don't think it should be called Aviation Club de France.

 

[upNdown]

Why is that your problem?

I’m not sure.
It’s not keeping me up at night or anything, so the serenity prayer isn’t necessary.
But like I said, it strikes me as wrong, it at least borders on legal issues, and this community is usually eager to discuss stuff like this, so I figured I’d get it going and see what other people think.

 

[CdnBeerLover]

Well, so far as use of the Aria name and other artistic elements are concerned, these are certainly violations of US trademark law and copyright law. That is fact.

These were made in China and sold to a customer in Australia. I'm unclear if US trademark law applies in China...they are a signatory to the trademark law treaty, but it doesn't appear to be in force.

http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ShowResults.jsp?treaty_id=5

If it doesn't apply, why would a US trademark be relevant to a customer in those countries?

Edit: for the record, I personally wouldn't have them made or purchase them. If I'm having chips made, I'm using artwork I know I have the right to use.

 

[Poker Zombie]

Nup

I think its only you.

I Like them.

I really don't understand your dislike other than a casino that you have nothing to do with might have a problem?

Why is that your problem?

You cant control it - you cant do anything about it - you have nothing to do with it - yet it annoys you?

Maybe this could be useful

God grant me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change
The courage to change the things i can
And the wisdom to know the difference.

Clearly, upNdown isn't the only one. This same topic came up a few years back when someone had a ceramic Bellagio set made. The completed set looks very nice, but still rubbed a number of collectors wrong. The same thing happens in any hobby. A Kit car Aston Martin will make any serious car collector wince, but less serious collectors will just say "cool". A sword collector will "bah humbug" a replica samurai sword, but it looks just as cool.

It all depends on what level you appreciate chips.

 

[allforcharity]

What if the owners of the Aria Hotel and Casino is a transnational company, and is registered to do business in the US, China, and Australia?

 

[BGinGA]

This same topic came up a few years back when someone had a ceramic Bellagio set made.

Same person, incidentally.

 

[Jeff]

On Chiptalk, there was a whole group of people who objected to duplicating chips and created a group...they called themselves the Creative Alliance. Their thing was that people should create their own thing instead of ripping other things off.

It was a heartfelt principle for most of them as far as I could tell. However, there seemed to be an undercurrent of self interest in protecting some high end chips from public confusion as to real/ripoff.

Complicated issue, that depending what you're ripping off, can affect others.

 

[Kensco]

On Chiptalk, there was a ... Creative Alliance... Their thing was that people should create their own thing instead of ripping other things off.

I was a member, and still feel that way.

Something that looks like a Bellagio label but has a different name arched over the top with a corresponding large initial - are okay; not very creative or original but if its your thing knock yourself out. Imitation (allegedly) being the sincerest form of flattery, I can see it.

The ceramics mentioned in upNdown's OP are complete unashamed infringements on the Aria trademark. Typical of certain manufacturers in certain geographic areas. I cannot abide. (n) :thumbsdown:

 

[Gunnar]

My 2cents.

First of all I have designed some sets and I would hate that someone would recreate them without permission.

Another thing that the Aria is a trademark and a business based on the name so I think it is okey to make a tribute set when it comes to colours but it can not be to close and I think it is wrong to create replicas. It is not hard to create a set that is similar that says something like "Mini Aria" instead of Aria.

I personally would never create a set with another brand name without permission and while I don´t like these ceramic replicas I really hate the WSOP replicas as I think there are boundaries and we as hoppyists and collectors should honor great designs not steal them...

 

[justsomedude]

Personally, I'd struggle with using a copyrighted design/logo to make chips for resale. That said, I have no issue with a fellow chipper getting these made "under the radar" for their own home/personal use. They are ceramics, they differ visually from the 'real thing,' and vary enough to never be confused with - or considered counterfeits of - their live Paulson counterparts. Besides all that, I just think the Aria ceramics in question are pretty cool.

However, if it was a copyrighted logo/work that I owned/created, I'd probably take issue with it. And yes, I acknowledge the hypocrisy in this statement.

 

[trever]

Tribute chips are great
Blatant copies are not

 

[Lovejoyz]

There are problems here for sure. There are some things that would flag a casino Asset Protection department even though it might not have anything to do with the casino directly.

Also, marketing. People spend a lot of money, and go through tons of loopholes to make sure their trademarks, copyrights, all kinds of things remain exclusive to their business: for security reasons, customer experience, etc etc.

I feel that if the name was simply put on the chip, "Aria", in some different font, color scheme, design, it would create less flagging for the casino. I could see it getting by.

The biggest issue I have here, is that the chip actually have 'Aria' using the trademark design. Their name, the way it is designed, and the way it's logo is placed (the way the crossing of the A ends up dotting the i), in white, black background. These are things that the casino pays for to be exclusive to them.

Would you think it's ok the buy a blank pair of white Starter shoes, and ironing the Reebok Delta on them. Would Reebok appreciate the use of their Delta logo on a shoe that isn't their brand? Is that legal to do so? The answer to both of those are no. But, would they go out of their way to do anything about it? nah...

The casino chip...I can assure you it isn't legal. I can also assure you as long as they aren't anywhere near our casino, we wouldn't go out of our way to do anything about it.

 

[CHP TD]

"our casino"

Interesting... Who are you?

 

[Lovejoyz]

"our casino"

Interesting... Who are you?

I'm not associated with the Aria if that's what you're trying to ask.

 

[CHP TD]

I'm not associated with the Aria if that's what you're trying to ask.

Oh Ok cool you just sounded like you did.

 

[CHP TD]

This thread made me think

Is relabeling in the same vain?

 

[upNdown]

This thread made me think

Is relabeling in the same vain?

Fair question. I'm not sure if it's the same, but I have a similar distaste for relabels. I did it once, with horseshoe fracs, and I didn't like it. I think there's some distinction between relabeling to make chips that never existed (like fracs) and relabeling to make chips that you just can't get (to fill out your set,) though I don't care for either.
But regarding the Aria's, I feel like there's a significant difference, in that the Aria is alive and well and open for business, while most of the relabels we see are for dead casinos.

 

[Lemonzest]

I think they are fine with two caveats:

1. Dont bring them in the casino

2. Dont sell them for profit in bulk.

If there are a few sets circulating among collectors I think its fine. In fact I want more good copies of Binions, Tropicana, and Dunes sets.

If I made copies in my mind it would be an hommage not counterfeiting.

I have zero interest in a chip that says Anna or Ania instead of Aria.

 

[Lovejoyz]

I think they are fine with two caveats:

1. Dont bring them in the casino

2. Dont sell them for profit in bulk.

If there are a few sets circulating among collectors I think its fine. In fact I want more good copies of Binions, Tropicana, and Dunes sets.

If I made copies in my mind it would be an hommage not counterfeiting.

I have zero interest in a chip that says Anna or Ania instead of Aria.

Selling them for profit has nothing to do with it. We pay a lot of money to make sure our copyrights, and trademarks are under full compliance of the law and the gaming commission. Whether we know about them or not is absolutely a moot point and makes no difference. The fact that they are shown on this website, and not in use exclusively at their own home game, without public knowledge is enough to be deemed counterfeiting, no matter if you consider it counterfeiting or not.

The casino doesn't care about your hommage, respect, good deeds, tribute chips, or interest in chips that say Aria vs Ania. That 'Aria' is their property. It was counterfeited. It's illegal. End of story.

Now you're right about their interest in pursuing legal work. In that it isn't worth the effort or time to go out of their way to enforce US copyright laws for a set of chips worth $500. But, that doesn't make it ok.

If this forum were an insurance forum, and somebody came on here saying how they got away with insurance fraud....would the people pursue legal action? Probably not....but it's still illegal, so is speeding if you don't get caught. It's more of a question about moral character.

If you steal a pack of gum from a convenience store, is it legal if you don't have legal action put against you?

 

[ovo]

Nearly everything that is made, with the casino name, all the dealer buttons mimicking the artwork of the chip, is probably in violation of copyright laws. But this is small scale, not for profit, and not really on anyone's radar .

 

[Lemonzest]

Selling them for profit has nothing to do with it. We pay a lot of money to make sure our copyrights, and trademarks are under full compliance of the law and the gaming commission. Whether we know about them or not is absolutely a moot point and makes no difference. The fact that they are shown on this website, and not in use exclusively at their own home game, without public knowledge is enough to be deemed counterfeiting, no matter if you consider it counterfeiting or not.

The casino doesn't care about your hommage, respect, good deeds, tribute chips, or interest in chips that say Aria vs Ania. That 'Aria' is their property. It was counterfeited. It's illegal. End of story.

Now you're right about their interest in pursuing legal work. In that it isn't worth the effort or time to go out of their way to enforce US copyright laws for a set of chips worth $500. But, that doesn't make it ok.

If this forum were an insurance forum, and somebody came on here saying how they got away with insurance fraud....would the people pursue legal action? Probably not....but it's still illegal, so is speeding if you don't get caught. It's more of a question about moral character.

If you steal a pack of gum from a convenience store, is it legal if you don't have legal action put against you?

I am not saying its legal just that I dont have a problem with it...

I agree posting pics here is not a good idea while the casino is still in operation.

Would it change your view if casino was closed?

 

[Wils]

To look at this in a simplistic way, if I wanted to create a copy of a da Vinci painting at home, I wouldn't feel unduly bad about that. It's for my own personal use. I'd hang it up on my wall and that would be that.

However if I ever tried to sell it as the genuine thing, or otherwise tried to pass it off as the real thing, or advertised my ability to recreate an expensive masterpiece, I'd be wrong to do so.

Same thing applies here, doesn't it? It might be an infringement but who (including the Aria) cares?

 

[justsomedude]

To look at this in a simplistic way, if I wanted to create a copy of a da Vinci painting at home, I wouldn't feel unduly bad about that. It's for my own personal use. I'd hang it up on my wall and that would be that.

However if I ever tried to sell it as the genuine thing, or otherwise tried to pass it off as the real thing, or advertised my ability to recreate an expensive masterpiece, I'd be wrong to do so.

Same thing applies here, doesn't it? It might be an infringement but who (including the Aria) cares?

I'm not sure about this, but I think bringing in a third party (the manufacturer) changes things. Making Aria chips or da Vinci knock offs in your basement for home use is one thing... passing off the artwork to another to have them duplicate it might cross some legal thresholds.