Do people have a problem with these Aria knockoff ceramics? (4 Viewers)

[Lovejoyz]

This leads me to a question. there appears to be a few jurisdictional issues. Designed in Australia (AKA copyright infringed in Australia) Made in China, Infringed in the USA.

then there is the issue of damages. So now bad are the damages. If i was a judge ruling in this case id be thinking about 2 things 1 Has the Aria trademark been used without permission. I cant see an argument that will stand up for the against. 2 then id have to work out how much harm came from it. (Also noted that judges cant make their own punishment outside what the law prescribes, and i have no idea what the USA law prescribes so i'm being a layman's judge, not a real one).

So what has the Aria lost out of it? Im struggling to see a loss here. Conversely the Aria has got lots of advertising on this site from the discussion.

Also could you imagine the bad press that would happen if any action was sought? Multi billion Corporation chases down poor aussie battler...

I see that this is a very complicated issue, and yes its pretty clear the similarities of the trade mark are striking, however I still think the harm factor is so negligible its without merit for a corporation to entertain any thought of perusing it.

But i dont think that that is what this is all about.

I really think its about an opinion, that opinion is based on a persons values - weather you think Person A should have or should not have done this. And any time values are challenged emotions come to the front. Mine did.

You care or you don't. The law is not flexible, Opinions are. You like tribute chips or you don't.

To me this is kind of 2 fleas arguing over a dog. The dog doesn't care. the 2 fleas can coexist and not run out of dog.

In some ways the whole discussion is a bit silly and some of this discussion is completely serious.

But none of it is easy or simple.

I still like the chips... I totally understand why you could hate them.

Life Hey!

Ps i have to change my signature to "Rules Nit"

I think the issues are potential, and not kinetic. If the Aria allow one person, one Chinese factory to make the chips using their logo in Ceramic form, then some twit not from Aussieland, but instead England has a China Clay made with the Aria logo. Then, some Eskimo in Nova Scotia has a brother in Mexico that can get an actual Paulson made in the factory using the Aria logo. At what point is any of that wrong? Are they different? Really the harm in all of those is nonexistent...until.. the next step and the next, and then somebody tries to bring a few $100 china clays to the Aria at a busy table with a new'ish dealer... most chips $100 and below don't use RFID, or black light stamps. In time the casino would catch them probably....but it's the process of getting there that you'd want to slow down.

Well, how do you slow it down? You go after the Aussie battler to keep people from wanting to do it again....:/ Now, I don't see this happening, but, at some point....now you say, is this legal? Is it worth it?

I do think much of it is about opinion, and there is no right or wrong answer. You're right about that.

 

[fredo]

Yes. It's sort of like a statute of limitations, or expiring copyright. Once they are closed and out of business, you don't really have to worry about ruing their product, or devaluing it. Once they don't care about their own copyrights and trademarks, the general public can quit caring also.

I don’t think that’s 100% accurate.
The Dunes has been closed for 25 years and somebody still owns the copyright or trademark or whatever. I’m not sure if Apache owns it or if they just pay a licensing fee or whatever to whomever owns it, but I’ve read here (and I believe) that you can’t just start printing and selling Dunes chips, legally.

I have been curious about this question since seeing the group buy for the hot-stamped gpi\bcc chips. My mind went right to the possibility creating a 5k chip to go with my Aquasino set. Perhaps it would be different because a 5k chip was never made?

 

[Poker Zombie]

The real harm, as I see it from a chip collector PoV is that they are fake chips. Once they are out there, buying "Aria" chips over the internet becomes dangerous. The original maker may not sell them, but if he dies (and we all will someday), someone may sell these chips as "Aria" chips as an uninformed seller to a less knowledgeable buyer, or worse - an honest collector who couldn't tell by the pics.

Just making them is the equivalent of "Authentic casino weight". It does not matter how nice they look, they're wrong for our hobby.

 

[MacGrad]

I think so, at least in that case... although "wrong" might not be the correct word. They were essentially tribute chips, and certainly drew on somebody else's original concept and design.

I thought that Toby had used relatively common cat artwork found online, and the other guy used similar artwork from the same artist (not J5, I don't think). J5 may have designed the Black Cat Club logo and stuff.

I think J5 had used some clip art as the basis for the Black Cat design, and made a few tweaks to it... and it appeared the "tributes" used J5's art as the basis and made a couple tweaks to that (such as tail locations).

If you think the "tributes" to Toby's chips were "wrong" (and I agree that might not be the right word), then shouldn't the Aria ceramics also fall into that category? They are essentially using a trademarked name and logo/font style as the basis for their inlay...

 

[BGinGA]

Yep. Like I said earlier, they are cool, but not cool that they were made.

 

[Ronoh]

This thread reminds me of the discussion on CT regarding the "Black Cat Club" and "Le Chat Noir" customs... it woukd be interesting to see how today's chippers would respond to that situation.

Summary: one member (Toby) had custom chips made by ASM using a "Black Cat Club" theme that was designed by @Johnny5 ... shortly thereafter, it was discovered that another member had chips made that appeared to borrow heavily from that design ("Le Chat Noir"). The chips were different colors, but used the edgespots and overall inlay design as the original "Black Cat Club" ...

Was copying/tweaking another chipper's design wrong?

My opinion - wrong.

I had a member PM me last year asking what I thought about his planned CPC set. Different inlays naturally (same mold), of the eight chips I believe three were exactly the same as my P&Ps with another two using the same colors with slightly different spot patterns. I nearly vomited.

Was glad he came to me before making them so I could give my opinion. Don’t know if they were ever made. Hope not.

 

[CHP TD]

Im kind of blown away with this thread...

When it started i thought there was no way to have a problem with this.

i still like em but im conflicted that i like em.

 

[pltrgyst]

Copyright violations are not much of a risk, in general.

But trademark violations are another animal entirely. You might not think it's worth a casino's time and expense to go after a relatively insignificant violator, but US trademark law absolutely requires the holder of a trademark to vigorously defend that mark, or it is considered to have been "diluted" and can be declared invalid. The trademark holder really doesn't have a choice once they become aware of the imitator.

The imitation doesn't have to be an exact copy. On things like "tribute" chips, the basis of judgement applied by a trademark holder or a court is the "likelihood of confusion".

 

[Lovejoyz]

The imitation doesn't have to be an exact copy. On things like "tribute" chips, the basis of judgement applied by a trademark holder or a court is the "likelihood of confusion".

This statement also applies to a certain setting of people also, right? Likelihood of Confusion basis always applies to general public, and not group advocates. So although 95% of this forum knows they aren't real, or nothing like the real thing...90% of the general population thinks they might as well be Aria chips, and thats what matters more. Is that correct?

 

[pltrgyst]

So although 95% of this forum knows they aren't real, or nothing like the real thing...90% of the general population thinks they might as well be Aria chips, and thats what matters more. Is that correct?

Yes.

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

@liftapint

 

[liftapint]

@liftapint

Yes, dear?

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

Yes, dear?

Tagging people isn’t the cool thing to do? Damnit @JeepologyOffroad you led me astray!

 

[liftapint]

Tagging people isn’t the cool thing to do? Damnit @JeepologyOffroad you led me astray!

How did you pick this thread?

 

[ReallyGoodUsername]

How did you pick this thread?

searched “Eskimo”?

 

[Phantom]

 

[Kid_Eastwood]

Am I good with my ArYa tribute set ?

To come back to the topic, I myself created a replica of the WSOP chips with the possibility to have semi-customization.
I've been asked several times if I could put the Rio logo etc but always refused.

Now, I'm only creating the "tribute" sets with SF color palette in order to, on top of the different inlay design, have not exactly the same colors. Example here. I've redone (but not published yet) the WSOP replica with the SF palette.

 

[SpaceMonkey420]

I have been curious about this question since seeing the group buy for the hot-stamped gpi\bcc chips. My mind went right to the possibility creating a 5k chip to go with my Aquasino set. Perhaps it would be different because a 5k chip was never made?

I use the fun night 5k atm.

 

[upNdown]

Am I good with my ArYa tribute set ?

To come back to the topic, I myself created a replica of the WSOP chips with the possibility to have semi-customization.
I've been asked several times if I could put the Rio logo etc but always refused.

Now, I'm only creating the "tribute" sets with SF color palette in order to, on top of the different inlay design, have not exactly the same colors. Example here. I've redone (but not published yet) the WSOP replica with the SF palette.

In my mind, yes, you're good. Nobody with a brain in their head could ever mistaken your chips for the real thing.

 

[surfik]

I don’t want to threadcrap, and I don’t think I’m looking to “shame” anybody, but this has been sitting in the back of my mind for a week, so here it is. I think I have a problem with them. Maybe a few problems. I have no idea if it’s “illegal” to commission these chips - probably not, if they’re for personal use, and nobody’s profiting. But it still doesn’t feel right to do it, just because some Chinese factory doesn’t care.
Slapping Aria’s name on chips just doesn’t seem right, even though there’s probably no chance of ever passing these off as the real deal. Not in the casino, anyway, but maybe on eBay?
Part of my objections might be my own idiosyncrasies - I don’t like fakes and knockoffs. Well executed tributes might be a different story, but I don’t think these are that.
Anyway, if this is trolling, so be it. I put it in off-topic for a reason. But as I said, I don’t like it, and I’m just wondering if I’m alone on this, or what other peoples perspectives are..

So in the immortal words of Phill Hellmuth "... it's just bad etiquette..."

 

[upNdown]

So in the immortal words of Phill Hellmuth "... it's just bad etiquette..."

Yes. And as I've had more time to think about my thoughts, I've realized this - as far as the legality goes, making exact copies of a casino's chips is illegal, at least here in America. I don't care about that. We're all adults. If people want to break laws and risk the consequences, that's up to them. But what bothers me is the flaunting of it. Keep it to yourself. Don't show off your illegal chips. Its bad etiquette.

 

[BGinGA]

We're all adults. If people want to break laws and risk the consequences, that's up to them. But what bothers me is the flaunting of it. Keep it to yourself. Don't show off your illegal chips. Its bad etiquette.

So is farting at the poker table in mixed company, but that doesn't stop some of my more childish players.

 

[rendangzi]

I actually have a problem with people copying for example the "Casa Mango" set, and I think that they should ask for "rights" to it should they want to make a replica set.

However, when it comes to Aria. Dgaf tbh. If I like it I will order one safe in the knowledge that Aria doesn't seem particularly offended or care enough to sue me. Is it bad for the hobby? I don't think so. I have friends who are now interested in chipping after they saw the Aria replica ceramic sets because its something they identify with from watching high stakes poker. Much more interested than they would be looking at a set of leaded THC "Casino Aztars".

I think there is a fine line between what can be copied and what can't. There are copies of Mona Lisa's work sold everywhere, and I don't think the Lourve will take offense unless someone is trying to pass it off as the real thing. In any case, if someone successfully passes off a replica as real at an Aria casino, they have much bigger problems in their security than people trying to copy their designs anyway.

Honestly don't think its bad etiquette. Imitation is the highest form of flattery. Whoever designed these chips should be proud that people like it enough to spend considerable personal sums to replicate it.

TLDR: I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with making a tribute set as long as someone is not trying to pass it off as the original. Legality is moot here as Aria themselves will seem like the petty losers if they try to pursue this with hobbyists. See what happened to USBgate.

 

[Chipmunk]

It seems like there is some confusion between copyright and trademark. Copyright protects a work from being copied. It is intended to protect authors, artists and the like. A trademark on the other hand exists to denote the origin of an item. It seems to me that this implicates trademark— conveying a false impression that the chip in question is from Aria. The value of the set derives almost exclusively from this association. It wouldn’t surprise me if Aria could recoup the profits of the manufacturer and even require destruction of the offending chips. Personally because of this I think people should stick to knockoffs of dead casinos, though even in that case someone may hold the Intellectual Property of the dead casino.

 

[Felt_Lizard]

I have decided to post in this thread.

 

[Felt_Lizard]

Wait.....I blew it....I only said the quiet part....

 

[SpaceMonkey420]

Question is:

Do people have a problem with these Aria knockoff ceramics?​

My answer is: If they do they are prob weak and even more pitiful. F-em. Bunch of b*^#%es.

 

[Kid_Eastwood]

There are copies of Mona Lisa's work sold everywhere, and I don't think the Lourve will take offense unless someone is trying to pass it off as the real thing.

La Gioconda is public domain. So anyone can use it (even for commercial purposes) without asking any permission to the owner of the original.