CPC patterns + molds/inlays questions (2 Viewers)

[binoclard]

Hi,

Just a couple questions, out of curiosity and possible interest, about CPC spots patterns, levels, and the online design tool:

- In the design tool, I see a 1916, and a 3916+ but on this reference page I see only a 3916 and a 3916A… Is the 1916 still an option?

- How come there is no 2916? Or 4916? (even though there are all the options with the x12 and the x14)

Regarding the inlays, is there some inlays sizes that go better with some molds? Imho yes, clearly, but I would rather be sure ;-)
Generally, I assume the logic is to fill the mold recess with the most appropriate inlay size, right?
For example I see that CSQ could work with 7/8 or 1", but 1" on a DSQ exceeds the limits of the mold. Is that only an aesthetic choice?
I saw a couple casino chips with huge inlays that clearly goes over the mold. What about a smaller inlay? Let say a 7/8 on a FDL mold? Not sure I would do either, but I like to keep the options open.

Thanks

 

[BGinGA]

- In the design tool, I see a 1916, and a 3916+ but on this reference page I see only a 3916 and a 3916A… Is the 1916 still an option?

- How come there is no 2916? Or 4916? (even though there are all the options with the x12 and the x14)

Spot options are dependent upon what cutting dies are available -- they are used to cut out the spot area(s) from the raw chip slug and the corresponding material that is used to replace those voids with other colors.

So apparantly no 2916 (or 4916) die exists (or is no longer serviceable; these things do wear out over time). Sometime a two-spot die will be rotated and used twice to produce a 4-spot slug.

The 1916 and 3916 are likely cut using the same tool, but with the 1916 slugs using the same base material color to replace the voids in two of the three locations.


As far as inlay sizes go, CPC has recommendations (and restrictions) based on what works (with reasonably achievable results) and what looks good. Some CPC molds do not have an actual recess at all; the inlay is pressed into the chip slug during manufacturing (displacing the material and creating a continuous flat surface). Removal of the inlay would reveal that 'recess', which is actually a void in the chip caused by the inlay itself.

Unlike CPC, Paulson/GPI offers a wide array of inlay size options for each of their molds (hence that casino chip with an oversized -- likely Giant -- inlay. See the PCF Resources section for a list of Paulson inlay sizes with graphicical representations.

 

[warma]

David has talked about reaching the limits of spot options, based on how he manufactures chips (different from Paulson). So I wouldn’t hope for more.

To be fair, though, he said that prior to introducing the trimoon, and he has experimented in the past with some super high level limited quantity spot patterns you’ll find if you dig.

 

[binoclard]

Thank you both!

So apparantly no 2916 (or 4916) die exists (or is no longer serviceable; these things do wear out over time).

The 1916 and 3916 are likely cut using the same tool, but with the 1916 slugs using the same base material color to replace the voids in two of the three locations.

Too bad, I would have loved a 2916… I don't know why, but I think I prefer the x916 than the x12 look.

I would have thought it was the other way around, the 1xxx die used three times to make the 3xxx, but it makes sense.

Is it public knowledge how much a CPC mould, or a die, or even a new colour could cost? In these days of crowdfunding, I am sure we could dream of something (Says the guy who is already overwhelmed by the current possibilities)

 

[warma]

Thank you both!



Too bad, I would have loved a 2916… I don't know why, but I think I prefer the x916 than the x12 look.

I would have thought it was the other way around, the 1xxx die used three times to make the 3xxx, but it makes sense.

Is it public knowledge how much a CPC mould, or a die, or even a new colour could cost? In these days of crowdfunding, I am sure we could dream of something (Says the guy who is already overwhelmed by the current possibilities)

There are lots of calls to do that, and David calmly walks folks off the ledge. It’s a simple ROI calculation with a high cost and a high chance of failure.

Many would agree with you on the x916 > x12 look, but the x12 does have the sharp arced inner edge shown on the design tool. These are some recent blanks I had made up, all 312 and 3d14. The 312 almost look like 3916…just a little narrower.

 

[binoclard]

Yeah, I know I am nitpicking, and I am not even sure I'll go with any 212, and I am certain it would not bother me once the real chips are on the table.

Thanks for the picture, good to know the inner curve is less pronounced in reality than in the mockup tool.

 

[Darson]

Anything is possible but realistically rarely practical. For example David once showed an experiment to make 1/8th pies which while successful resulted in something like multiple failures for every successful chip. The cost of such things would be impractical.

Same thing for new spot patterns. You can make an investment of several thousand on new punches and dies and then it still not work (cause more failed chips than successful so it’s not practical).

New colours are another thing - a huge upfront investment without guarantee of success.

So would we really be happy to crowdfund something there we raise say 100k for a new mold without assurance that it’ll work? Unlikely…

 

[improviseallday]

So would we really be happy to crowdfund something there we raise say 100k for a new mold without assurance that it’ll work? Unlikely…

I'm sure there are plenty of people willing to pitch in for the possibility of claws spot. If it's within the single thousands I think it's possible.

 

[binoclard]

Good points…

I totally get why it could potentially be a very expensive disastrous enterprise for molds and die… but colours?

I may be super naive, but lets say he decided to make a palette with pastels tones, like a lighter DG pink, or an even lighter Light Blue, is it not basically the same base, with more white. Or basically add any pigment to the Bright White to have lightly coloured Whites? I am sure the recipe is slightly more complicated than Base+Pigment, but in the end it should not be that expensive? I am sure we can find a Pantone exec that loves poker and convince him to branch out and develop a partnership with CPC to develop chips

 

[BGinGA]

Is it public knowledge how much a CPC mould, or a die, or even a new colour could cost? In these days of crowdfunding, I am sure we could dream of something (Says the guy who is already overwhelmed by the current possibilities)

New mold = $20k-$50k

New spot cutting die = varies, but whether a new spot will work effectively with the manufacturing process is a sunk and unknown development cost. Could end up as unfeasible and a total loss of time/money.

New colors = cost prohibitive when it comes to materials (which are expensive and must be purchased in bulk), not to mention the cost of experimentation and testing to see if they will even work.

So yes, you are a bit naive (not uncommon, however). It's not just a simple matter of adding some pigment to the batter. Different colors are constructed using a vast array of differing materials, and each has it's own characteristics such as melting temp, etc. Requires a lot of expensive materials, research, and testing, with no guarantee of success or useability. Plus any effort spent not making customer chips is lost money in time, materials, and production capacity.

These are essentially hand-made artesian products using equipment and processes dating back 85+ years, and the margins are thin.

 

[LowerBama1714]

How about this for naive…what if GPI could start selling some recipes to CPC. Just write an exclusivity agreement or some type of CDA that would forbid CPC from selling the recipes to any other custom compression molded clay poker chip manufacturer. Right? This would be great.

Otherwise…I’m cool with the current state of things. If CPC stopped making custom chips…that would not be great.

 

[BGinGA]

How about this for naive…what if GPI could start selling some recipes to CPC. Just write an exclusivity agreement or some type of CDA that would forbid CPC from selling the recipes to any other custom compression molded clay poker chip manufacturer. Right? This would be great.

Otherwise…I’m cool with the current state of things. If CPC stopped making custom chips…that would not be great.

The two processes -- and materials -- are so different as to be not interchangeable.

 

[BGinGA]

Not to mention that they are essentially competitors. Sorta like Coca Cola selling their recipe to Pepsi.....

 

[improviseallday]

These are essentially hand-made artesian products using equipment and processes dating back 85+ years, and the margins are thin.

Makes me wonder- if they raised their prices, would it help cover more R&D? Risky move but might be worth it for a more vibrant yellow, some crazy spots, etc.

 

[binoclard]

Thanks a lot for the detailed explanations @BGinGA

 

[LowerBama1714]

The two processes -- and materials -- are so different as to be not interchangeable.

Also no other chip manufacturers…I was just fooling around. Seems like we’ve beaten this horse into a homogeneous pile of mush.

 

[Machine]

Thanks a lot for the detailed explanations @BGinGA

You’ll be hard pressed to find such knowledge about all things chip related, and it seems to only be getting thinner with regard to people with such deep knowledge

 

[RagingAZN]

This has been a very informative read for a newbie like myself, thank you!

 

[binoclard]

These are essentially hand-made artesian products using equipment and processes dating back 85+ years, and the margins are thin.

Not to mention that they are essentially competitors. Sorta like Coca Cola selling their recipe to Pepsi.....

To me it looks more like Heineken vs some small craft brewery… I have no idea of the sales volume we are talking about here, but I am under the impression that CPC indeed cultivates the artisan approach to keep offering awesome hand-made quality chips to the aficionados, while Paulson/GPI/Angel corners the rest of the pro market.

The R&D and initial investments should be really colossal that nobody else even attempts to carve a small niche in the private customer market. The last attempt I heard of was the German Stralka, and it did not goes well…

Still, I can't believe there is not some more enthusiast startup that says "hell we are going to make better (or at least as good) than Paulson with our new clay and compression molding technology", that could not raise enough funds to try and make it a reality for the discerning chippers. Limited edition sets à la NAGB, customs… Perhaps I grossly overestimate the size of the market by judging it via the PCF lens, but still. I mean, we are talking poker… there is definitely money in the poker world. And just by looking here, at the prices of certain sets/chips, the amounts people are spending on customs, NAGB like Tigers that sell for thousands… I am inclined to think there would be demand. Too small of a market?

Anyway, that derailed quickly enough, sorry for all the people here that have to go through this same discussion every time a new member wonders if he could have a 2916. I'll go back and play with the Design Tool.

 

[Huskerchipper]

What CPC currently offers we should all be thankful for. The current company, CPC, offers more colors, more edge spots and more inlay options than ever before when it was known as ASM. I'm very happy with their options.