Compression clay manufacturers - let me get this straight (1 Viewer)

[upNdown]

There are present only two manufacturers of clay chips IN THE WORLD? That's right, right? GPI and CPC? I guess I've know this for a while, but when you say it out loud, it seems crazy.
And in history, there have been fewer than 10 companies to manufacture compression clay chips? I'm sure I'm missing something, but all I can think of is:
Paulson
CPC
BCC
TRK
ASM
Burt
That company that made THC chips before Paulson
Who am I missing?

Is that really it? Strange industry.

 

[atomiktoaster]

I think you're missing quite a few early companies. Go through some of the older mold descriptions here: http://www.antiquegamblingchips.com/molddesignindex_site.htm

Bud Jones made compression chips at one point too, but there are a good number of others.

 

[Shaggy]

I got the impression a lot of the early ones were actually made by Burt, but labelled by the reseller.

The early hat and cane was Christy & Jones.

Not all companies existed simultaneously. I.e. Burt became ASM which became CPC.

The compression equipment the Palm Gaming has... Where'd that come from?

 

[72o]

Oh yeah...Palm Gaming. I still have the "rare opportunity" chip and spots to prove...well nothing really.

http://www.chiptalk.net/forum/threads/very-rare-opportunity-place-your-order-now.68820/

 

[upNdown]

I think you're missing quite a few early companies. Go through some of the older mold descriptions here: http://www.antiquegamblingchips.com/molddesignindex_site.htm

Bud Jones made compression chips at one point too, but there are a good number of others.

I'm sure I have. It just fascinates me that there's only one real player in this market (no offense intended toward CPC.) and I realize it's a niche market; it's really mostly just American casinos that use clay chips, right? And with the plastics and ceramics, Clay might only be half of the American market. But that's still a lot of casinos.

 

[ssanel54]

The compression equipment the Palm Gaming has... Where'd that come from?

Hispania? I think thats where the Scroll Molds came from.

 

[BGinGA]

There are present only two manufacturers of clay chips IN THE WORLD? That's right, right? GPI and CPC? I guess I've know this for a while, but when you say it out loud, it seems crazy.
And in history, there have been fewer than 10 companies to manufacture compression clay chips? I'm sure I'm missing something, but all I can think of is:
Paulson
CPC
BCC
TRK
ASM
Burt
That company that made THC chips before Paulson
Who am I missing?

Is that really it? Strange industry.

Pretty close. Early on, both the US Playing Card Co. and the Portland Billiard Ball Company produced chips. PBBC changed their name to Burt Co., bought out USPC in 1947, and was purchased and renamed to Atlantic Standard Molding (ASM), which was sold and renamed American Standard Molding (ASM), which later morphed into Classic Poker Chips (CPC) that we know today.

Almost all of the older stuff in the US was made by USPC and Burt Co. and sold by a bunch of different distributor companies (who often represented themselves as manufacturers, but weren't). The Christy & Jones top hat & cane chips were produced by Burt Co., as were the early Paulson chips.

Hispania Casino Equipment Co. (located in Spain) is another defunct clay chip manufacturer (1977-2008) - they produced clay chips on the scroll mold, sold mostly in southern Europe, Central and South American, and the Caribbean. Nevada Jacks purchased the Hispania assets in 2008, and eventually resold them to PGI. The Nevada Jacks line was later sold to ABC.

So the list is really even shorter than you think -- it's just these six companies who have made compression-molded clay chips:

USPC
Portland / Burt / ASM / ASM / CPC
T R King
Paulson
Blue Chip Co (BCC)
Hispania

Bud Jones, Langworthy, and a few other companies made high-quality poker chips, but did not manufacture compression-molded clay chips.
.

 

[atomiktoaster]

Pretty close. Early on, both the US Playing Card Co. and the Portland Billiard Ball Company produced chips. PBBC changed their name to Burt Co., bought out USPC in 1947, and was purchased and renamed to Atlantic Standard Molding (ASM), which was sold and renamed American Standard Molding (ASM), which later morphed into Classic Poker Chips (CPC) that we know today.

Almost all of the older stuff in the US was made by USPC and Burt Co. and sold by a bunch of different distributor companies (who often represented themselves as manufacturers, but weren't). The Christy & Jones top hat & cane chips were produced by Burt Co., as were the early Paulson chips.

Hispania Casino Equipment Co. (located in Spain) is another defunct clay chip manufacturer (1977-2008) - they produced clay chips on the scroll mold, sold mostly in southern Europe, Central and South American, and the Caribbean. Nevada Jacks purchased the Hispania assets in 2008, and eventually resold them to PGI. The Nevada Jacks line was later sold to ABC.

So the list is really even shorter than you think -- it's just these six companies who have made compression-molded clay chips:

USPC
Portland / Burt / ASM / ASM / CPC
T R King
Paulson
Blue Chip Co (BCC)
Hispania

Bud Jones, Langworthy, and a few other companies made high-quality poker chips, but did not manufacture compression-molded clay chips.
.

So the description of Bud Jones using the Die Card and Nevada Jacks molds here is actually just Burt Co? http://www.antiquegamblingchips.com/molddesign_dice.htm

 

[BGinGA]

Correct. Burt Co. manufactured those chips.

http://www.marlowcasinochips.com/links/davidspragg/borland/bjmolds.htm

 

[mummel]

The fact that there isnt a company offering Paulson quality chips to the global market blows my mind. Surely some of the 7.5 billion people on earth would like to own some decent clay chips at a reasonable price?

 

[BGinGA]

Very high start-up costs and an extremely steep learning curve tend to dissuade people from attempting to produce a product with limited appeal that only sells for about a buck. YMMV.

 

[upNdown]

As I was writing the original post, I knew it was just a matter of time before @BGinGA would show up with a history lesson. Thanks!

 

[kmccormick100]

What ever happened to the PGI equipment and their plans for compression molded chips?

 

[justsomedude]

The fact that there isnt a company offering Paulson quality chips to the global market blows my mind. Surely some of the 7.5 billion people on earth would like to own some decent clay chips at a reasonable price?

And don't forget, it's not just startup costs or potential profits that are the barriers to entry, but at least here in the US, you need to deal with a burdensome regulatory landscape if you want to make a product that can be sold to real casinos. So that really leaves you with one of two options before you even open up shop --- 1) sell to casinos only, or 2) sell to consumers only. In the USA, it's basically impossible to do both.

And under option 1 you'd be competing with the biggest name in the business... GPI/Paulson. Good luck with that.

Under option 2, you'd be selling new custom-mold non-casino chips to collectors who are (typically) looking for popular/known molds from actual casinos. You'd also be competing directly with CPC. Again... good luck.

Unfortunately, it's just a sh*t business to try and start up given all the existing constraints on the market.

 

[justsomedude]

What ever happened to the PGI equipment and their plans for compression molded chips?

Got a spare $50k laying around?

 

[upNdown]

And don't forget, it's not just startup costs or potential profits that are the barriers to entry, but at least here in the US, you need to deal with a burdensome regulatory landscape if you want to make a product that can be sold to real casinos. So that really leaves you with one of two options before you even open up shop --- 1) sell to casinos only, or 2) sell to consumers only. In the USA, it's basically impossible to do both.

And under option 1 you'd be competing with the biggest name in the business... GPI/Paulson. Good luck with that.

Under option 2, you'd be selling new custom-mold non-casino chips to collectors who are (typically) looking for popular/known molds from actual casinos. You'd also be competing directly with CPC. Again... good luck.

Unfortunately, it's just a sh*t business to try and start up given all the existing constraints on the market.

Right. And all that assumes you could find somebody who know the secret formulas for the clay and how to run the equipment, I don't think you'll find that information on the Internet or in a back issue of popular mechanics. I get it. But again, it just seems bizarre to me that this is a product that A million people handle every day, yet there are only two companies in the world that produce it.

 

[brains613]

Right. And all that assumes you could find somebody who know the secret formulas for the clay and how to run the equipment, I don't think you'll find that information on the Internet or in a back issue of popular mechanics. I get it. But again, it just seems bizarre to me that this is a product that A million people handle every day, yet there are only two companies in the world that produce it.

Many things are shockingly controlled by small groups...

Beer Labels in the US, for one.

Costs of medical care are determined by just 31(!) people...

Just a couple off the top of my head...

 

[Blaster]

What ever happened to the PGI equipment and their plans for compression molded chips?

They still have it .... last Joe at PGI mentioned about a year & a half ago, was that he might have the clay "blanks" made in China, & heat/pressure compress them here with real inlays & mold , & get some real clay chips out ...... ( I believe he compression molded some china clays with real inlays as a test) , but that hasn't materialized .......yet ...

 

[DJ Mack]

Many things are shockingly controlled by small groups...

Beer Labels in the US, for one.

Costs of medical care are determined by just 31(!) people...

Just a couple off the top of my head...

Don't forget the key components in just about every cell phone ever made whether it's an Apple, Samsung, Nokia, or whatever. The chips that enable these phones to talk to the cellular network are manufactured by a very tight group. And the components they don't make themselves? They own the patents and charge others for the rights to make them.

 

[rowlin]

I don't know how many manufacturers there should be, but can understand why companies that are essentially issuing de facto currency would want the process to not be well known, widespread, or trivially inexpensive.

I wonder how long it will take China to figure out how to make a decent compression-molded alternative.

 

[DJ Mack]

A million people handle every day, yet there are only two companies in the world that produce it.

I meant to include this in my earlier reply. One thing to keep in mind is that while maybe a million people handle the product every day the number of actual consumers (i.e. the casinos) is probably no more than a few thousand and they don't buy that often.

I wonder how long it will take China to figure out how to make a decent compression-molded alternative.

It's a function of cost and quality (which includes consistency and durability). For a handmade product there is a surprising amount of consistency in checks. More so Paulson than CPC. These come from the raw materials, the equipment, and the labor. China's big advantages come on two fronts: labor and materials. If they can get by with "just good enough" materials they can lower costs but that's tough to do when there seem to only be a few ways to make a good batch of clay that is consistent with every batch before it.

Then there's labor. Yes, you can find cheaper labor in China, but you can also find it in Mexico, which is where GPI does their manufacturing now. This is a somewhat skilled occupation so the idea of throwing 10 cheap, unskilled Chinese workers at the problem doesn't work when you consider that each inferior unit means real wasted materials that cannot be reused. Even if your labor is next to free your wasted materials will eat your lunch.

Lastly even if China figured it all out you've got the issue of security and politics. In the US, casinos are regulated at the state level. That means if you want to make a gaming product you potentially have to comply with 50 different sets of rules and allow full auditing and tracking of the process from start to finish. Anyone here who has ever done business with Chinese firms knows that they and the Chinese government are very protective of their interests. It's difficult enough for a private firm to audit a factory. The idea that many government employees from another country would be allowed to take up residence in their havens of human rights abuses is outright laughable.

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

I just came across this thread recently, and I wanted to let you know that there may be at least one manufacturer of compression clay molded chips in the United States that has been overlooked.

According to Robert Eisenstadt’s clay chip rim mold guide, http://www.antiquegamblingchips.com/molddesign_other.htm, K.P Gaming Supplies is an American Indian owned gambling supply business that has apparently been manufacturing molded clay chips since the mid-1990s. I believe that they produce two styles of compression clay chips, which they sell to Indian casinos and card rooms, mainly in California, one an “Aztec” design, and the other a 4 suits, and Thunderbird design. I've posted a photo I just took of the two chip mold designs, below. I've handled stacks of the chips, and they are very nice chips, more similar to Paulsons than anything else.

They must be a really small company, because there is almost no information about them on the internet. Eisenstadt lists them as being located at 12121 Madera Way, Riverside CA 92503, however I found their very minimal Facebook page, which lists there address as 210 Crourse Dr., Corona, CA 92879. The link to their website on the Facebook page goes to a non-gambling related Chinese language website.

Here is their minimal and Facebook page; https://www.facebook.com/pages/K-P-Gaming-Supplies/115448448477960

 

[detroitdad]

I just came across this thread recently, and I wanted to let you know that there is may be at least one manufacturer of compression clay chips in the United States that has been overlooked.

According to Robert Eisenstadt’s clay chip rim mold guide, http://www.antiquegamblingchips.com/molddesign_other.htm, K.P Gaming Supplies is an American Indian owned gambling supply business that has apparently been manufacturing molded clay chips since the mid-1990s. I believe that they produce two styles of compression clay chips, which they sell to Indian casinos and card rooms, mainly in California, one an “Aztec” design, and the other a 4 suits, and Thunderbird design. I've posted a photo I just took of the two chip mold designs, below. I've handled stacks of the chips, and they are very nice chips, on par with, more similar to Paulsons than anything else.

They must be a really small company, because there is almost no information about them on the internet. Eisenstadt lists them as being located at 12121 Madera Way, Riverside CA 92503, however I found their very minimal Facebook page, which lists there address as 210 Crourse Dr., Corona, CA 92879. The link to their website on the Facebook page goes to a non-gambling related Chinese language website.

Here is their minimal and Facebook page; https://www.facebook.com/pages/K-P-Gaming-Supplies/115448448477960


View attachment 111510

samples?

 

[upNdown]

samples?

I just jumped on eBay and ordered some. Very curious.

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

samples?

I only have these two chips. I used to live in San Diego until 2004, and I sometimes played at Pechanga where I played with these chips.

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

I was curious enough about KP Gaming supplies to call the number listed on their Facebook page. I wanted to know if they still manufactured these chips. The phone line was connected, and rang, but no one picked up and there was no voice mail.

There is a small chance that ASM/CPC or GPI manufactured these chips, but if they did, I think we would have heard about it already.

 

[upNdown]

I was curious enough about KP Gaming supplies to call the number listed on their Facebook page. I wanted to know if they still manufactured these chips. The phone line was connected, and rang, but no one picked up and there was no voice mail.

There is a small chance that ASM/CPC or GPI manufactured these chips, but if they did, I think we would have heard about it already.

I'll judge for myself soon enough, but are you sure that Red Fox chip is clay? The mold is very different from any other I've seen.

 

[Jeff in Iowa]

I'll judge for myself soon enough, but are you sure that Red Fox chip is clay? The mold is very different from any other I've seen.

I've just studied the Red Fox "Aztec Pyramid" mold chip closely, and it is compression molded clay. It has no "pip" marks characteristic of injection molded chips, such as the Unicorn chips. In the hand at least, it feels around the same weight as a Paulson or BCC chip. There are no signs of brass flakes on the edge, so it is probably not made by ASM/CPC, although I don't know exactly when they started to add brass to their chips.

I suppose there is a small chance that BCC manufactured these chips before they went out of business (in 2008?), but I think that we would have heard about it before now.

 

[BGinGA]

This does not surprise me, as I have a sample chip of both those molds (Aztec and thunderbird suits) - I would agree that they appear to be compression-molded.

from Robert Eisenstadt's site:

I also overlooked the fact that Matsui produced compression molded clay chips (M mold) for a brief time before giving up on the effort.

I still maintain that the Nintendo chips (lazy N or oilcan) are not compression-molded -- the injection marks have been machined off, similar to how Bud Jones and B&G chips are finished.

 

[dennis63]

Great thread / great discussion with lots of info.

This reminds me of another insurmountable barrier to starting a chip business, mentioned by JimB in his interview on the blue wall a few years ago. Even if you could break into the casino industry and get the giant order for maybe three million casino chips, JimB said most large casinos want you to make them three million perfect chips, delivery them securely, then wait 90 days to get paid.

You'll need to delivery the chips under tight security. If even one small box of chips breaks open in transit, the casino must declare the entire shipment compromised. They'll refuse the whole shipment, and refuse to pay you. And if that happens, you know you'll be sued for lost business while they wait for new chips.