Tourney Chip Chop Trouble (2 Viewers)

Mojo1312

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Let me provide some background. For the past three weeks I have played in a small $50 weekly tournament that two years ago attracted between 18 to 25 players and is now only drawing 8 to 12 players.

We had 8 players my first week back. I had the big stack for most of the evening. Final three, I am dealt Queens in the SB. Button raises. I flat. BB (short stack) jams all in. Button folds, I call. BB flips over Aces. I take the cooler. I end up facing the dealer heads up a 2.5 to 1 dog. He generously offers to split the prize pool 50/50 after taking his buy-in back. I accept the deal.

We had 12 players the following week. Again, I am the big stack for most of the evening. We are down to 5 payers and
the button raises with pocket eights. I call with AH,TH. Flop: 3H,8H,Black Ace. Check-bet-call. Turn, Jack of Diamonds. Check-bet-call. River, Jack of Spades. I bet, he flats.

I am dealt A,J the very next hand. I raise, the SB calls. Flop: A,5,5. Check-bet-min. re-raise. He milks me for my flop bet on the turn and the river with K,5DD. I bubble the tournament. (4th place)

Mentally, I wanted to take a week off from this game, but a friend of mine who is without wheels wanted to play last night. Being the good friend that he is, he persuaded another mutual friend to join us. Being the good friend that I am, I took them.

Like last week, we had 12 players. I floated through the better part of the tournament with an average to slightly larger than average chip stack. I end up slowly bleeding chips as the host secured a dominating lead by eliminating the two other remaining players from the game.

I found myself out-stacked 60K to14K. I asked the host if he wanted to split the prize pool according to our chip stacks. Neither he nor the last player eliminated had any idea what I meant. (Surprisingly) I stated the prize pool would be chopped based upon the percentage of chips we had before us. The two took my words literally. Thus, they thought the game was over. I back-pedaled, trying to explain to them that a split only makes sense if it gives that player more money then what they are already guaranteed to win.

They either ignored or didn't understand the premise. The player who finished in third really lost his cool, telling me a deal is a deal, and calling me a liar for backing out. He threw fuel on the fire by raising his voice and not allowing me to explain myself further, so I simply stated three or four times that I wanted to play it out.

I had the chip lead within 35 minutes of commencing heads up play. The host offered to split the money fifty-fifty.
Seeing no long term gain, I took the deal.

(There is a 2x pay jump between first place and second place.)

WTF?? is my question.
 
yeah i like the other players don't get it either a chop is a chop. Game is over and you chop the pool. if you want to deal - the game is over.

You all agreed.

then u back pedal?!?! sounds like you were getting the bad deal then you back pedal AFTER agreeing to deal.

yeah 3rd had a reason to be pissed.
 
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So you offered to chop heads up based on stacks. Neither the other heads up player or the person who was just eliminated from the tournament (not sure why he is even a factor, he is out of the tournament) understood the terms you were offering.

They took the words literally? What does that mean?

They thought the game was over. Um, it was, right?

You tried to explain that the split only made sense if you were guaranteed more than you would otherwise make? So it only made sense (for you) if you got better than second place money? I assume with the chipstacks, you would have gotten less than guaranteed money? Shouldn't you have figured that out before you made the offer?

My guess is you don't get an invite back -- but I really am confused by what happened. So maybe I have the facts wrong.
 
I have to be honest... I'm not following this either.

You said you wanted to chop based on chip stacks, then you decided you didn't want to do that because you realized it would net you less money? Did you not do the math before making the offer?

I'd be pissed off too, unless I'm missing something here.
 
You guys are missing the fact that a chip chop doesn't start with each player receiving $0. The math starts with each player receiving 2nd place $$$ up front before calculating the chop of the remaining funds.

Chopping 101 fellas :)
 
A proper two-player chip equity chop will never result in the smaller stack getting less than the posted payout..... because the two players are not chopping the entire prize pool. Each gets the 2nd place amount, and then the balance of the prize pool is distributed according to the stack sizes -- 14/74 and 60/74 of the balance, in this case.

Perhaps you were not clear in your offer.
 
You guys are missing the fact that a chip chop doesn't start with each player receiving $0. The math starts with each player receiving 2nd place $$$ up front before calculating the chop of the remaining funds.

Chopping 101 fellas :)

Is this a written rule somewhere?

I'm really not trying to be a smart ass. Sure, this makes sense now that it is explained, but if it is just "accepted practice" among poker players, and not a "rule" you can point to... you're going to run into trouble with those who missed Unwritten Chopping Rules 101. As clearly occurred in the game in question, and in this very thread.

I've never chopped based on chip stacks so this is new to me, and I sympathize with with the confused/upset player. Some of us just need to beaten over the head with certain concepts. :)
 
i think one confusing part is that you are referring to "they" when it was really just you and 1 other person.

Why is the eliminated guy even in the conversation?

Sounds like you suggested chopping the pot based on chip stacks. You and the other player left. Sounds like he said yes.
Sounds like you realized you would get less money than just taking 2nd place. Which was the least anyone at that point would win.

So you back pedaled. And they got pissed. is that correct?
 
Its pretty standard, JSD. Put chip stacks in to any deal maker software. You'll never get less than second place money for a heads up chop.

Yea. I get it now. But I'm just saying I can easily see where the confusion came from. I'm putting my ignorance out there on the table as a learning example to the "pros" here. Simply because many of my players are non-gamblers and I can easily see this exact scenario playing out at my games if a similar situation arose.

Just saying... When it comes to money, never assume anyone has the exact same view as you. It's always best to be crystal clear, and black and white.
 
It's only common sense. Both players are guaranteed 2nd place money, and are only really playing for the extra amount that is awarded to first place..... so that is what gets chopped.
 
Sounds like a communication problem, not necessarily yours, but explaining you both get 2nd place money THEN chop based on stacks would have been better than just saying .."lets chop based on stacks"
 
It's only common sense. Both players are guaranteed 2nd place money, and are only really playing for the extra amount that is awarded to first place..... so that is what gets chopped.

Assuming common sense at a poker table? c'mon Dave !!
 
If OP was proposing a standard chop and the other player (and his 3rd place side kick) wanted to skip step one (both players get second place money) and go right to step two (split proportionally according to chip stacks), there was no meeting of the minds and therefore, no agreement. OP had every right to back out if they were agreeing to something he didn't propose.
 
Sounds like you realized you would get less money than just taking 2nd place. Which was the least anyone at that point would win.

So you back pedaled. And they got pissed. is that correct?

Sounds like a communication problem, not necessarily yours, but explaining you both get 2nd place money THEN chop based on stacks would have been better than just saying .."lets chop based on stacks"

I think this sums it up nicely. And I fully admit my dumbness (good word) when it comes to chopping. But now consider myself informed. ;)
 
Is step 1 both taking second place? Step 2 chop stacks?

Either way, if chop suggested and other player says YES, then op could/ should have said ,"So we are chopping, first we take second place each then we chop the leftovers based on stack size, you ok with that? "
But it sounds like his 'friends' i use the term VERY loosely were confused. And also angry. maybe even hungry. so lets go with Hangry !
 
I think this sums it up nicely. And I fully admit my dumbness (good word) when it comes to chopping. But now consider myself informed. ;)

I'm pretty naive myself when it comes to this stuff, but i do know i really only play with friendly people that can resolve disputes in fair manor. Or have a floor called if playing at a card room.
This sounds like a less than friendly situation.
 
We don't know what payout were, just that there was a 2x jump, so I assume $100 for first and $50 for second.

With stacks at 60,000 and 14,000, the correct chop should have been something like this:

2017-10-19 09.12.24.jpg
 
It sounds like you misspoke. You’re right that a chop only makes sense if you get more than you were guaranteed, but it doesn’t sound like that’s what you proposed. And given the generous chop you received 2 weeks prior, it sounds like this group has a history of chops that don’t make sense, so you can’t blame them for believing you might have intended a chop that didn’t make sense.
From their prospective, you went back on the deal after you realized your proposal, once calculated, was a bad deal for you. So I can see why they were pissed. (Not that that excuses anybody for getting loud and aggressive - there’s no need for that)
The obvious lesson is to make sure you and everyone else understands exactly what you’re proposing before anybody accepts.
 
I agree with @upNdown 100%. I think OP proposed a deal and assumed he/they would know what OP meant. He/They accepted a different deal, and OP did not agree with his/their interpretation of the chop. His/Their interpretation of the deal was a fair position based on history and the words you used.

OP's mistake is not backing out on the deal, just not communicating the offer properly.
 
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Say it's heads up with payouts of 200/100.

P1 suggests a chop

P2 does the numbers in his head and thinks for whatever reason that P1 is offering to give him 220 to just end the game now.

P2 jumps on the "offer"

P1 says "that's obviously not what I meant..."

While we don't know exactly how anything was phrased, I will never side with P2. Particularly when his reaction is to get pissed and to call P1 a liar/backing out/whatever instead of considering that just misunderstood P1s proposal.
 
hmm the first chop diddt work that way

and he said "based on chip stacks." Im sorry that sounds pretty literal to me.

Face facts. if the chop went where everyone gets second and you are small stack - you get a VERY good deal.

You found out you were getting a bad deal and you back out.


Just think how that would look to someone if they did not know about that sort of chop.

And i mean that really stop and think

How does that look?
 
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I don't think OP is entirely at fault. I actually put some blame on the host as well.

I try to make sure my players are happy and everyone knows what's going on. If something is proposed or something comes up that people are unfamiliar with, I typically stop the game until everyone is on the same page. I wish this host would have done the same here.
 
hmm the first chop diddt work that way
I end up facing the dealer heads up a 2.5 to 1 dog. He generously offers to split the prize pool 50/50 after taking his buy-in back. I accept the deal.

Without knowing the payouts and buy-in amount, it is impossible to calculate the 'fairness' of the first chop.
 

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