Tourney Charity Tourney Help (1 Viewer)

[rjbf65]

Our local Knights Council has been doing poker tourneys for several years and I've been playing in them just for the past couple years when I moved to the area. There are maybe 4 of these per year and only through the winter months. Years ago this would attract over 200 players. The most recent one had only 42. We are happy with 80 players so that was a disappointment. I know poker popularity has dwindled over the years and I'm not sure if our game can be rejuvenated or not. I'm hoping it can be. The game is a $25 buy in and has a 70% payback. The base starting stack is 3000T. You have the option of buying an additional 1k chip for $5 and there is no payback on that $5. I'd say 95% of the players buy this. There are unlimited rebuys for the first 4 levels and then an add on option at the conclusion of the 4th level. Add on options are 2000T for $20 or 1000T for $10. Rebuys are 2000T for $20. Top 10 places pay. Which is about right for 80 players, not so much with 40.

Blind structure is as follows. 25 minute levels.
25-50
50-100
100-200
200-400-- Add on and Rebuy and remove 25&50 chips. (Yes they use a 50T chip which is unnecessary IMO)
300-600
500-1000
1000-2000 --500T are removed
2000-4000
3000-6000
5000-10000 --1000T are removed
10000-20000

So as you can imagine, the structure has blinds doubling several times which results in a flurry of knockouts pretty soon. The game has to end in 6 hours so it's kind of the way it needs to be, but the recent one with only 42 players was done in 4 hours.

What can be done to attract more players again? I suggested the 2 deck method but that has fallen on deaf ears. I think it would help a lot in terms of seeing more hands in those early levels before it becomes a shove fest. I'm honestly not too sure how many of the players care about that. The majority of them are 50+ years old.

One thing I'd like to see is being able to change the structure based on how many players show up so that it last the full 6 hours. Looking for suggestions.

Thanks in advance.

 

[T_Chan]

I've been doing charity fundraisers tournaments for a few years, just last night I ran a tournament with 12 full tables of 9. I'm not in charge of getting players so I can't give much first hand advice on that.

What I can suggest is to pre-sell tickets. Get the commitment early. Once they've paid the cash, they'll show up and try to bring a friend or two so that they have some company. You can also encourage players to bring friends, for each friend, give them a discount on their buy in. Blast social media if you can, and phone people personally on top of sending texts and emails. People tend to be more likely to show up if they've spoken to you vs been sent a facebook invite of an email.

I don't know what your chips you have at your disposal, but I normally do either a T3000 but more often a T5000 starting stack. 12 x 25, 12 x 100, 5 x 500, 1 x 1000 for a total of 30 chips. This is a decent starting stack that players aren't afraid of throwing in more chips. With the T3000, I give out 8 x 25, 8 x 100, 4 x 500 for a total of 20 chips which I've found makes players play a lot tighter --> less rebuys.

I suggest giving unlimited rebuys for the first 8 levels. Some players feel that it's not worth buying back in after a certain level due to the blind level vs the chips they get for the rebuy, then they won't, but most do. I offer full stacks for rebuys for 1/2 price which again encourages rebuys. I'm not a fan of this for a regular tournament, but when it's for charity, the goal is more money.

Add ons: same as rebuys, 1/2 price of the entry, but I double the stack. So for the T5k starting stacks, I offer 10k for the add on. This is a recent thing I've done, I used to offer the same as starting stack but I realized that again in the spirit of collecting more revenue, the bigger add on is purchased more.

My go to blind structure:

15 minute levels:

25 / 50
50 / 100
75 / 150
100 / 200
150 / 300
200 / 400
300 / 600
400 / 800
Break - chip up - rebuys end - offer add ons.
600 / 1200
800 / 1600
1000 / 2000
1500 / 3000
2000 / 4000
2500 / 5000 (sometimes I omit this if the tournament looks like it is ahead of time)
3000 / 6000
5000 / 10k
10k / 20k
20k / 40k
Blinds double until the game ends

Once the blinds start to double it's pretty much time to wrap up the tournament. If there is no time limit on the venue, then this can be more relaxed, but in most cases the tournament has to finish within a certain time. The above structure normally lasts 5 - 6 hours. If the game looks like it may not finish in time, then reduce the time of each blind level. This has to be a bit anticipated though so take a look at how many players are left 1 hour before closing time. I hate doing this but if the game has to end, it has to end. And of course, vice versa if it looks like the game if flying and it's going to end early.

You may notice there's only 1 break. I used to do a mini-break after 150/300 to do a chip up, but it's hard to get players back in their seats after breaks. I just do chip ups on the fly for the larger stacks of 25's until the 2 hour break, then a full chip up at the break. I do the same on the fly chip ups with the 100's and then a hard chip up at the 1k/2k level.

Payouts: I always advise against telling players ahead of time how many players will pay out just because attendance is never a certainty. If you do, it should be a percentage. ie, 10% of players get paid. Same goes with actual prize amounts, ie. 50% for 1st, 30% 2nd, etc. Prizes are announced after the break since no more money is collected after that point.

I would certainly push the 2 deck suggestion again, it really helps speed up the game. More hands per hour = more rebuys. When games are self dealt, shuffling a deck with people waiting around kills a lot of time. If a shuffle takes 30 seconds, 6 shuffles kills 3 minutes... If you have competent dealers for each table who take 10 seconds to shuffle a deck then it's not as much of a concern, but even then I still go with 2 decks and ask the button to shuffle the deck for the dealer so that the next hand can start right away.

70% payback is generous. For most of the events I've run, the organizers pay back 50%. Again, depending on what the fundraiser is for, it's sometimes more or less. People are more willing to get paid less for a cancer fundraiser than a beer league softball team.

Different charities and fundraisers do things their own way. Nothing's set in stone, my way's probably not the "right" way or anything. I've had to change things up based on everyone's needs. It seems to work well, hopefully some of it can help you out.

 

[rjbf65]

Great advice. Thanks for the detailed response! I want as high quality of a tourney as possible with our time constraints. I think the more legit and well run it feels the more repeat players we will get.

 

[BGinGA]

One thing I'd like to see is being able to change the structure based on how many players show up so that it last the full 6 hours. Looking for suggestions.

Best ways to manage this are to either alter the starting stack sizes (larger for fewer players) or the blind level times (longer for fewer players).

 

[rjbf65]

Best ways to manage this are to either alter the starting stack sizes (larger for fewer players) or the blind level times (longer for fewer players).

It would have to be blind level times. Chips are all pre bagged and have a table and seat number included and given when players buy in.

 

[RowdyRawhide]

Here are some links to my K of C tourney back in September. IIRC we started at 6 and ended at midnight. Could probably be sped up by doubling blinds halfway through as these blinds dont increase 100% at any time.


http://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/rebuy-vs-add-on-or-both.14302/



http://www.pokerchipforum.com/threa...knights-of-columbus-charity-tournament.14817/

 

[T_Chan]

< 40 players, 20 minute blinds. You might even want to add in a 1200/2400 level and after the 5k/10k level, incrase blinds by 50% instead of doubling. You can also add in some lengthy breaks.
41 < x < 80 players, 15 minute blinds, maybe include the 1200/2400 level depending on how it's running. Only recommend 2-3 breaks at most.
>80 players, 15 minute blinds, possibly have to cut down to 10 minute levels if time is an issue. Minimal breaks.

IMO you just have to go with the flow. Keep an eye on the clock and how many players you have. Nothing you can do about the first 3ish hours of the game. After that try to get a feel for how many players rebought and added on since it adds a lot more chips to the game which can prolong it with bigger stacks. As tables balance and shrink down, it's easier to figure out if the pace is ok or if you need to adjust. I've found that you want the final table to be seated with about 45 minutes left in the game. Sometimes it wraps up in 20 minutes, sometimes over an hour, but 45 mins is average. If you still have 2 full tables with 1 hour to go, speed it up.

The worst thing that can happen is if you have very inexperienced players who make it to the final table who do nothing but check and take forever to shuffle. This can really drag a game extra long since chips are just moving around the table and hands per hour is low. For the final table I usually jump in and deal for the table. It helps the game go faster and everyone appreciates the dedicated dealer.

 

[rjbf65]

< 40 players, 20 minute blinds. You might even want to add in a 1200/2400 level and after the 5k/10k level, incrase blinds by 50% instead of doubling. You can also add in some lengthy breaks.
41 < x < 80 players, 15 minute blinds, maybe include the 1200/2400 level depending on how it's running. Only recommend 2-3 breaks at most.
>80 players, 15 minute blinds, possibly have to cut down to 10 minute levels if time is an issue. Minimal breaks.

IMO you just have to go with the flow. Keep an eye on the clock and how many players you have. Nothing you can do about the first 3ish hours of the game. After that try to get a feel for how many players rebought and added on since it adds a lot more chips to the game which can prolong it with bigger stacks. As tables balance and shrink down, it's easier to figure out if the pace is ok or if you need to adjust. I've found that you want the final table to be seated with about 45 minutes left in the game. Sometimes it wraps up in 20 minutes, sometimes over an hour, but 45 mins is average. If you still have 2 full tables with 1 hour to go, speed it up.

The worst thing that can happen is if you have very inexperienced players who make it to the final table who do nothing but check and take forever to shuffle. This can really drag a game extra long since chips are just moving around the table and hands per hour is low. For the final table I usually jump in and deal for the table. It helps the game go faster and everyone appreciates the dedicated dealer.

Final table does get a dedicated dealer as well as a second deck that another guy shuffles during the hand. Really works well. Now getting 2 decks going from the get go would be a huge improvement. Also in these tourneys, 90% of the time we see the final few players chop the money. The payout is very top heavy. Ex.. $1,000 1st $500 for 2nd $300 for 3rd and then it flattens out. Seems to really encourage a chop unless someone has an outrageous chip lead. I'm not really a fan of the top heavy payout but it's not too big of a deal I guess.

 

[T_Chan]

If you're looking for a guide for blinds, take a look at blindvalet.com. You can create a tournament, enter your expected number of players, starting stacks and how long your want the tournament to last and it will give you a suggested blind structure. It's pretty decent. You can also edit it if you want to change it up a little. It also allows you to run it from your phone which is sync'd to the web version. I think it's still in Beta testing but I've used it a few times and it's usable.

 

[MaxB]

I am running a charity tourney on Saturday ... it's the third one this year. I have done a bit of tweaking with how it runs, but I have mostly kept everything the same (I do surveys after to see how people like it). My thread is http://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/alc-fundraiser-poker-tournament-3-nov-12th-at-a-brewery.15259/

I have my payout list and my blind structure shown there. I do $20 buy-ins with $20 rebuys and $20 add on. The first two tourneys averaged a little over one buy-in per person. 50% of the cash goes to the charity.

Although I am sharing the info for the OP's question, yes this is also a shameless plug for the event .... just trying to get anybody from PCF to go (y) :thumbsup:

 

[rjbf65]

Sort of a hijack on my own thread here but I'm curious about something. How many more hands per hour do we get when playing 2 decks instead of 1? I know it depends on how fast players can gather and shuffle and deal but I'd say you are looking at atleast an average of 30 seconds to do all of these things, maybe even longer than that. I would say you can get 7 or 8 more hands her hour. Has anyone actually looked further into this to get a more accurate number?

 

[T_Chan]

Charity poker can go slow, 1 to 2 orbits using 2 decks is typical with 15 minute rounds. with one deck you're looking at less than one orbit, YMMV.

 

[rjbf65]

I'd agree with that. I think a little over a round per 15 mintutes assuming 8 players using 2 decks and a little less than a round per 15 minutes using 1 deck. Misdeals really kill the flow on 1 deck tables. I'm going to try and actually count hands per hour next time I play.