CatPants' WSOP PAHWM #3 - Event 13: $600 PLO Deep Stack (1 Viewer)

Chippy McChiperson · Jun 11, 2023

bergs said:
I hate bluff catching with the 4th nuts in a tournament this deep with levels this long.

When have you made it this deep lol

bergs · Jun 11, 2023

Chippy McChiperson said:
When have you made it this deep lol

In a WSOP event, not yet.

I’ve got a win in a 65 person tournament and a 40 person tournament, a 4th in a 200 person tourney that featured Greg Raymer, and a 5th in a 300 person tournament that featured Darvin Moon and Chris Moneymaker.

Moxie Mike · Jun 11, 2023

MrCatPants said:
Turn brings

Hero CHECKS
CO CHECKS
BTN CHECKS

River is

Pot is 57k.

Action on Hero.

JustinInMN said:
We have a bluff catcher. There is one way to play a bluff catcher. Check and call.

That was my first thought but I'm more leaning toward a blocker bet.... Something that looks like a 'please call me' bet like 16-20k maybe? A larger bet might fold out the K-hi or Q-hi flush but considering how we got here, I think HERO is getting looked up.

So a blocker bet allows HERO to set his price and could save him some chips if the plan is to c/c here. It should look strong enough to two opponents that they'd only raise with the nuts in which case HERO can obviously release... and hell it might even extract value from sets, two-pairs, lower flushes, etc.

This does of course open HERO up to being bluffed off his hand by someone holding the naked :ac:

... but the risk of this is opponent specific.

utgtrash · Jun 12, 2023

Moxie Mike said:
That was my first thought but I'm more leaning toward a blocker bet.... Something that looks like a 'please call me' bet like 16-20k maybe? A larger bet might fold out the K-hi or Q-hi flush but considering how we got here, I think HERO is getting looked up.

So a blocker bet allows HERO to set his price and could save him some chips if the plan is to c/c here. It should look strong enough to two opponents that they'd only raise with the nuts in which case HERO can obviously release... and hell it might even extract value from sets, two-pairs, lower flushes, etc.

This does of course open HERO up to being bluffed off his hand by someone holding the naked ... but the risk of this is opponent specific.

I think in a cash game this would be too thin to bet fold, but it seems as though your opponents in this hand are too passive to bluff raise or raise with non nut flushes. A smallish bet like 1/4-1/3 pot is probably better than checking.

grebe · Jun 12, 2023

MrCatPants said:
Continuing since I clearly play this hand. Agree with the sentiments though, regardless of outcome shouldn't have been in this hand.

Context:
Level 16, money bubble burst about 25 minutes ago and we are already down to about 420 of the 6000+ runners. No notable pay jumps until the top 50 or so, so pay jumps are not a concern.
Been at this table for a while. One guy, who claims to have never played PLO before, has been winning literally like every hand - backdoors like crazy. Sun run like you seldom see for about an hour.

Blinds 3k/6k with a 6k BB ante
Average stack overall in the event is about 265k

SB: 850K
BB 90k
UTG : 120k
UITG + 1 (Hero): 425k
MP: 240k
HJ: 175k
CO: 180k
BTN: (Guy who can't lose): 1.4M

Folds to hero who looks down at

Hero opens to "standard"-ish 14k
CO calls
BTN calls
SB folds
BB folds

Pot is 57k.

Flop is .

Action on hero.

I saw this hand and was wondering if it was playable. Respect to standard open though.

This flop can go either way. I think this flop is a check to protect our equity in the hand, because we are going to have to fold to a raise if someone has hearts and give up our straight draw. I am thinking we want to proceed with caution. Against one opponent in position, I think we can bet this. OOP against two, check/call a reasonable bet.

grebe · Jun 12, 2023

MrCatPants said:
Lots of second best and beyond options here. Hero plans to check-fold.

Context:
Level 16, money bubble burst about 25 minutes ago and we are already down to about 420 of the 6000+ runners. No notable pay jumps until the top 50 or so, so pay jumps are not a concern.
Been at this table for a while. One guy, who claims to have never played PLO before, has been winning literally like every hand - backdoors like crazy. Sun run like you seldom see for about an hour.

Blinds 3k/6k with a 6k BB ante
Average stack overall in the event is about 265k

SB: 850K
BB 90k
UTG : 120k
UITG + 1 (Hero): 425k
MP: 240k
HJ: 175k
CO: 180k
BTN: (Guy who can't lose): 1.4M

Folds to hero who looks down at

Hero opens to "standard"-ish 14k
CO calls
BTN calls
SB folds
BB folds

Flop is .

Hero CHECKS
CO CHECKS
BTN CHECKS

Turn brings

Pot is 57k.

Action on hero.

I am in check/call mode. Good turn, improves our equity. Not looking to get in a big pot here without the nut straight though.

grebe · Jun 12, 2023

MrCatPants said:
Checks around again. We make an "ok" backdoor flush.

Context:
Level 16, money bubble burst about 25 minutes ago and we are already down to about 420 of the 6000+ runners. No notable pay jumps until the top 50 or so, so pay jumps are not a concern.
Been at this table for a while. One guy, who claims to have never played PLO before, has been winning literally like every hand - backdoors like crazy. Sun run like you seldom see for about an hour.

Blinds 3k/6k with a 6k BB ante
Average stack overall in the event is about 265k

SB: 850K
BB 90k
UTG : 120k
UITG + 1 (Hero): 425k
MP: 240k
HJ: 175k
CO: 180k
BTN: (Guy who can't lose): 1.4M

Folds to hero who looks down at

Hero opens to "standard"-ish 14k
CO calls
BTN calls
SB folds
BB folds

Flop is .

Hero CHECKS
CO CHECKS
BTN CHECKS

Turn brings

Hero CHECKS
CO CHECKS
BTN CHECKS

River is

Pot is 57k.

Action on Hero.

check/call as long as it's only to one opponent.

bergs · Jun 12, 2023

How much is the check/call line group willing to call here if a villain bets? What about if you need to call with a player behind?

JustinInMN · Jun 12, 2023

Moxie Mike said:
That was my first thought but I'm more leaning toward a blocker bet.... Something that looks like a 'please call me' bet like 16-20k maybe? A larger bet might fold out the K-hi or Q-hi flush but considering how we got here, I think HERO is getting looked up.

So a blocker bet allows HERO to set his price and could save him some chips if the plan is to c/c here. It should look strong enough to two opponents that they'd only raise with the nuts in which case HERO can obviously release... and hell it might even extract value from sets, two-pairs, lower flushes, etc.

While I understand the "set your own price" has it's appeal, I don't think a blocker bet folds out any bigger flushes, and the :qc:

,

, and

are all unaccounted for (meaning I think there are far more combos of higher flushes available than lower ones), and no one had the opportunity to fold the backdoor flush draw on the flop as played. Furthermore, no straights got there and there are not board pairs, so to get "paid" anything we as hero pretty much have to hope someone played a set weakly or a villain will make a crying call with two pair.

I kind of liked the "set your own price" notion on the flop. But on the river, I think I still prefer the check-call approach to keep all bluffs from both villains in play, and knowing hero will be losing chips here in some cases.

bergs said:
How much is the check/call line group willing to call here if a villain bets? What about if you need to call with a player behind?

Two very good questions. The good news is hero has only put 14K in this pot, meaning hero is still above 400k, which is the upside to the pot control line, and there is only 57K in the pot right now. Calling a pot size bet here would be roughly 15% of hero's chips.

If the action goes hero check-cutoff check-button bet-hero call, then cutoff can pretty much only raise with the nuts here having only 180k behind, so that would be an easy fold for hero. But it's hard for me to imagine cutoff not betting the nuts himself and risk a check-behind when he needs to acquire chips.

If the action goes hero check-cutoff bet-button call, I think hero throws this away without concern.

Otherwise I think hero can call a bet from either player, even up to pot size (which I doubt is in frequent use this late in a big tournament), but the cutoff check-shoving the field is the worst case scenario for hero if it comes to that.

JustinInMN · Jun 12, 2023

bergs said:
In a WSOP event, not yet.

I’ve got a win in a 65 person tournament and a 40 person tournament, a 4th in a 200 person tourney that featured Greg Raymer, and a 5th in a 300 person tournament that featured Darvin Moon and Chris Moneymaker.

I met Greg Raymer once. Came to Canterbury Park for some special lecture/tournament event. We were going to get a mix game going, but didn't get the players.

JustinInMN · Jun 12, 2023

bergs said:
How much is the check/call line group willing to call here if a villain bets? What about if you need to call with a player behind?

So given your other remarks, are you resigned that the 4th nuts is possibly just a fold/hope it's good if it checks through sort of situation?

grebe · Jun 12, 2023

bergs said:
How much is the check/call line group willing to call here if a villain bets? What about if you need to call with a player behind?

I would call a pot bet quicker than I would call a half pot bet. Pot bet smells more like I have the A but not the full flush, where half pot says "nuts".

grebe · Jun 12, 2023

JustinInMN said:
Two very good questions. The good news is hero has only put 14K in this pot, meaning hero is still above 400k, which is the upside to the pot control line, and there is only 57K in the pot right now. Calling a pot size bet here would be roughly 15% of hero's chips.

If the action goes hero check-cutoff check-button bet-hero call, then cutoff can pretty much only raise with the nuts here having only 180k behind, so that would be an easy fold for hero. But it's hard for me to imagine cutoff not betting the nuts himself and risk a check-behind when he needs to acquire chips.

If the action goes hero check-cutoff bet-button call, I think hero throws this away without concern.

Otherwise I think hero can call a bet from either player, even up to pot size (which I doubt is in frequent use this late in a big tournament), but the cutoff check-shoving the field is the worst case scenario for hero if it comes to that.

I am pleased to report that this is exactly my line of thinking here. Maybe I'm not so bad off after all.

JustinInMN · Jun 12, 2023

grebe said:
I am pleased to report that this is exactly my line of thinking here. Maybe I'm not so bad off after all.

Well I have never played a deep PLO tournament

, there are certainly more experienced players commenting. I have played some PLO cash, and I have done some reading, but my comments on these threads should very much be considered "voice of the PLO newbie"

.

That said, I do have experience in tournaments, even beyond NLHE. (I have final tabled in both Crazy Pineapple and Seven-Card-Stud in fields over 100

.)

bergs · Jun 12, 2023

Losing 15% of your chips calling with a 4th best hand is how you get into trouble in large fields like this.

I was thinking that top set would sigh-call if we led out but the board was pretty wet on the flop and got wetter on the turn and everyone checked. I’m thinking that we’re up against Q-high flush or K-high flush in one spot and KTxx in the other, maybe even something like KQJT that flopped a wrap.

That river is such a brick for anything except a flush. The right size bet might even get a T-high flush to call. If a villain has the King flush he was likely going to lead out if hero checked anyway. Queen flush might actually fold here if we led out.

I still like bet-fold here. Give ourselves the best chance we have to win the pot. If we get 2 folds - hey that’s great too.

I’d bet 20K. And then tell myself not to get into these spots with these type of holdings this late in the tourney.

MrCatPants · Jun 12, 2023

With the passiveness of the hand, and our inability to fold out anything better with the exception of a Q-high flush, we opt to check and re-evaluate if there's a bet.

Context:
Level 16, money bubble burst about 25 minutes ago and we are already down to about 420 of the 6000+ runners. No notable pay jumps until the top 50 or so, so pay jumps are not a concern.
Been at this table for a while. One guy, who claims to have never played PLO before, has been winning literally like every hand - backdoors like crazy. Sun run like you seldom see for about an hour.

Blinds 3k/6k with a 6k BB ante
Average stack overall in the event is about 265k

SB: 850K
BB 90k
UTG : 120k
UITG + 1 (Hero): 425k
MP: 240k
HJ: 175k
CO: 180k
BTN: (Guy who can't lose): 1.4M

Folds to hero who looks down at :kd:

Hero opens to "standard"-ish 14k
CO calls
BTN calls
SB folds
BB folds

Flop is :kh:

.

Hero CHECKS
CO CHECKS
BTN CHECKS

Turn brings :kh:

Hero CHECKS
CO CHECKS
BTN CHECKS

River is :kh:

Hero CHECKS
CO CHECKS
BTN BETS 20k

Pot is 77k

Action on Hero.

JustinInMN · Jun 12, 2023

bergs said:
Losing 15% of your chips calling with a 4th best hand is how you get into trouble in large fields like this.

So I do understand and agree with this, which is why I thought you were just planning check-fold. My thinking is checking first probably induces bluffs as we are advertising we don't have the :ac:

by checking here, meaning it may be sound to call if players will bluff at hero's check. But that said, I think I am gradually talking myself into a free showdown or fold here, instead of check-call.

bergs said:
That river is such a brick for anything except a flush. The right size bet might even get a T-high flush to call. If a villain has the King flush he was likely going to lead out if hero checked anyway. Queen flush might actually fold here if we led out.

I still like bet-fold here. Give ourselves the best chance we have to win the pot. If we get 2 folds - hey that’s great too.

I’d bet 20K. And then tell myself not to get into these spots with these type of holdings this late in the tourney.

This thinking has me a bit confused. Given we can account for :jc:

,

, and

it's just so hard for me to assume a suited :tc:

is out unless the hand stretches into pretty low ranks, like :tc:

or something, and these sorts of hands did not flop well, even if they contain two hearts. (But again, the flop was checked through, I suppose, and the :8c:

is a pretty good turn for this particular sample holding)

Though you may be right a :qc:

flush might fold to a bet here. But if not, I just don't see how betting gives ourselves the best chance to win the pot, unless bigger flushes are going to fold. If we are always called by bigger flushes, then the bet just lights money on fire. If the check induces a bluff because we as hero are screaming no :ac:

here, then it creates opportunity to gain. I guess there is something to be said for making it expensive to rebluff, expecially with the cutoff being a short stack.

Or maybe the sensible approach is just win when the showdown is free, but don't call anything otherwise. I'm starting to talk myself into this being a check-fold if anything.

Chippy McChiperson · Jun 12, 2023

Question, you say BB can’t lose. youve obviously seen a lot of his hands, us he generally a passive or aggressive player. I’m leaning toward calling even though we are not closing the action, but if he is a calling station and has only been betting the nuts then I’m probably folding.

JustinInMN · Jun 12, 2023

MrCatPants said:
River is

Hero CHECKS
CO CHECKS
BTN BETS 20k

Pot is 77k

Action on Hero.

I think I would call at this sizing, I really don't think cutoff can check anything of value here unless he is planning to check-call a :qc:

flush. Even at that, our flatting may freeze him out of that choice if BTN is betting.

I think we will be shown a better flush fairly often, but 20k here don't hurt hero a ton.

That said, I think I could be persuaded that a fold is okay here, and we can be in this situations with better flushes and choose to defend there.

MrCatPants · Jun 12, 2023

Chippy McChiperson said:
Question, you say BB can’t lose. youve obviously seen a lot of his hands, us he generally a passive or aggressive player. I’m leaning toward calling even though we are not closing the action, but if he is a calling station and has only been betting the nuts then I’m probably folding.

Honestly, been a little passive for the amount of strength he's been hitting.

Chippy McChiperson · Jun 12, 2023

MrCatPants said:
Honestly, been a little passive for the amount of strength he's been hitting.

In that case it's a difficult decision. 20k to win 77k so we only have to be right slightly more than 20% of the time. The problem is we're not closing the action, although a cutoff check pot might be more inclined to have a bare ace bluff than the actual nuts here. I'd probably call, and if cutoff repots it and button folds might consider calling again.

bergs · Jun 12, 2023

Chippy McChiperson said:
In that case it's a difficult decision. 20k to win 77k so we only have to be right slightly more than 20% of the time. The problem is we're not closing the action, although a cutoff check pot might be more inclined to have a bare ace bluff than the actual nuts here. I'd probably call, and if cutoff repots it and button folds might consider calling again.

What are you beating when they repot?

Chippy McChiperson · Jun 12, 2023

bergs said:
What are you beating when they repot?

A bare ace of clubs

Rhodeman77 · Jun 12, 2023

Very rarely does the OOP player that leads the river into 2+ players not have a monster hand. If Hero bets the river the chances of getting called by anything worse are slim to none. So are we trying to get a fold then from a Q or K high flush by betting? I don’t think the K high can fold the way the hand played out, maybe the Q can especially if it is from the middle player and not the Button.

I think there is more value to be had in checking to induce a bluff from the dry Ac, a weaker flush on the button perhaps.

I can’t find enough hands that can call a value bet by Hero on the river to justify betting. If more chips are to be won, it will come from bluff catching.

I vote check call.

MrCatPants · Jun 12, 2023

I'm probably beating more than half of what BTN may be betting here with the passiveness of the hand, and just hoping CO isn't trapping (which should be unlikely, so sigh internally and call.

Context:
Level 16, money bubble burst about 25 minutes ago and we are already down to about 420 of the 6000+ runners. No notable pay jumps until the top 50 or so, so pay jumps are not a concern.
Been at this table for a while. One guy, who claims to have never played PLO before, has been winning literally like every hand - backdoors like crazy. Sun run like you seldom see for about an hour.

Blinds 3k/6k with a 6k BB ante
Average stack overall in the event is about 265k

SB: 850K
BB 90k
UTG : 120k
UITG + 1 (Hero): 425k
MP: 240k
HJ: 175k
CO: 180k
BTN: (Guy who can't lose): 1.4M

Folds to hero who looks down at :kd: