Cash Game Cash Game - Running the board more than once (1 Viewer)

Gavin

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Does anyone run the board multiple times during their cash games? We only play Texas Hold'em, so that's the only game I'm referring to...

I've never played in a house cash game that has run the board more than once so I'm only familiar with what I've seen on tv. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when it's down to heads up and one person is ALL IN prior to 5th Street (or prior to the Turn or prior to the Flop) being revealed, the two players have the option to run the remaining community cards twice or three times ONLY IF BOTH (verbally) AGREE TO DO SO.

Example: Player A goes ALL IN prior to the Flop and only Player B calls. POT Total is $300. Player A and Player B both agree to run the board 3 times.
  • Board#1: Player A ends up with a pair and Player B ends up with a higher pair
  • Board#2: Player A ends up with trips and Player B ends up with a pair
  • Board#3: Player A ends up with a pair and Player B ends up with a higher pair.
Player A "stays alive" with $100 (I say "stays alive" since Player A would be "ALL OUT" if the board was only run (the standard) once)
Player B wins $200.

And, in the above scenario, the dealer would burn a card, Flop 3 cards, burn, flop the Turn, burn, flop the River for Board#1; then burn, Flop 3 cards, burn, flop the Turn, burn, flop the River for Board#2; repeat for Board#3.

And some quick follow up questions:
  • Can/Does the board get run more than once with more than 2 players (Heads-Up)? I'm assuming yes, as long as all players but one are All In.
  • I assume neither player agrees to running the board more than once until BOTH players show/reveal their cards (after all, Player A is All In)
  • Running it more that once means only 2 or 3 times right? I mean, I guess it could run more that 3 times, but is this done and if so, why?
  • Is there a Burn card before starting Board#2 and Board#3?
  • I assume this is only done in Cash Games and not done in Tournament games? I only bring it up in case someone says, yeah - we do this during our tournaments (normal tournaments or perhaps just "wacky" tournaments). I'm thinking this might be an option for an "All in or Fold" tournament I heard about here on PCF... (read: "wacky" - and I DO mean that in an endearing way ;))
And a final question... does anyone "run the board" multiple times in a "different" way? I'm curious if anyone does this in a special/different way? Such as... instead of a verbal agreement between the players to run it more than once, I was thinking each player has a "Run it Twice" button and a "Run it 3 Times" button - each player tosses the button they would prefer in running the board, at the same time. If both buttons match, then run it that many times. If the buttons don't match, then run it just once. Is this a thing or even an option? Perhaps too gimmicky...? Any other thought/ideas/suggestions?

That's it... let me know what you think about any of it...

Thanx!
 
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swana

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I think you are correct in everything you've said except "when the decision to running twice is made". My understanding is the decision is made before revealing cards.
 

TheOffalo

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Yes only done in cash unless the tournament is very casual and may allow such things. Anything goes if it’s allowed by the house rules.

In games with double boards built-in, usually both boards of each street is dealt, with only one burn, before moving to the next street. I believe it’s the same for choosing to run it X times in a hand.

So in your example when running it three times is agreed upon pre-flop, I believe the order should be: burn, deal top flop (3 cards) then middle flop then bottom flop, burn again, deal top turn then middle turn then bottom turn, burn a third time, deal top river then middle river then bottom river.

You want to remember which board was dealt first, top or bottom (or more if running more times) and be consistent in the order.


I was incorrect for run-it-X-times. Each board completes first before dealing the next board, and there is a burn between each street on each board.
 
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TheOffalo

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I think you are correct in everything you've said except "when the decision to running twice is made". My understanding is the decision is made before revealing cards.
I think I’ve seen it in multiple ways. All-in in cash doesn’t require tabling like in a tournament. I’m pretty sure I’ve seen on TV people agreeing to run it without showing cards first. The main thing is that there’s no more betting (everyone all-in, or all but one) and it’s unanimous among all involved players to run it X times.
 

OfficerLovejoy

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I'd like to add that it shouldn't make any difference if you know your opponents cards or not for a decision to run it more than once.
If you're behind you won't be more or less behind if you run it more than once and same goes the other way around. So there shouldn't be a requirement to show cards before players make their decisions. They can but they shouldn't have to.
 

swana

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So in your example when running it three times is agreed upon pre-flop, I believe the order should be: burn, deal top flop (3 cards) then middle flop then bottom flop, burn again, deal top turn then middle turn then bottom turn, burn a third time, deal top river then middle river then bottom river.

I always thought it was the opposite. You complete the hand you are dealing before you start dealing the 2nd hand.
 

TheOffalo

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Yeah, it does not change EV, just reduces variance. So the person ahead should agree as much as the person behind.
 

TheOffalo

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I always thought it was the opposite. You complete the hand you are dealing before you start dealing the 2nd hand.
You may be right. I’m trying to look it up. It might indeed be different than a game that is double board by default, since you want the normal number of rounds of betting in the case of a double board game versus twice the amount of betting. Of course no more betting in a run it X time situation.
 

Gavin

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I always thought it was the opposite. You complete the hand you are dealing before you start dealing the 2nd hand.
Yeah... from what little I know, I think I've only see it on TV where the first board is completed before starting the 2nd board.

But again, perhaps it varies from place to place or it's based on the home rules...
 

Taghkanic

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As far as running it multiple times with 3+ players all-in, I’ve been in some games where this is disallowed especially for split pot games like PLO8 — because the time it can take to do the splits on multiple boards, with players each having a different stack size (making for one or more side pots), can slow the game down a lot.

As a host, I generally allow it (mainly because I have one reg who is an absolute wizard at quickly and accurately computing complicated splits).
 
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Goldfish

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Given that running it multiple times simply limits variance and given that the more cards people hold (4 and 5 card plo) the better chance of two big hands colliding, running “it” twice is very common especially in higher stakes cash games. most people run twice in the games I play in. Some don’t. There are multiple scenarios for this in our games.

1. Running it twice is not limited to 2 people situations. If all the participants agree (I.e 5 way), then the remaining board can be run twice from the spot where the participants agreed to run it twice.
2. If multiple participants are all in (more than 2) and 1 person only wants to run it once, the remaining participants can agree to run it twice if the person running it once doesn’t win any of the pot the first time.
3. If everyone agrees to run it twice preflop the participants can agree to run two full boards or 1 flop and 2 turns and rivers.
 

CrazyEddie

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  • Can/Does the board get run more than once with more than 2 players (Heads-Up)? I'm assuming yes, as long as all players but one are All In.
Yes. All players need to agree to run it X times, or it only goes once.

  • I assume neither player agrees to running the board more than once until BOTH players show/reveal their cards (after all, Player A is All In)
While showing cards prior to running out the board is required in tournaments, it is not generally required in cash games. Cash players may choose to keep their hands hidden until the board is dealt out, and may choose to muck their hands without revealing them, even when one or more players are all-in. Accordingly, players can agree to run the board X times without revealing their cards if they so choose.

  • Running it more that once means only 2 or 3 times right? I mean, I guess it could run more that 3 times, but is this done and if so, why?
This is a matter of house rules / host's preference. Hustler Live only allows a max of two times and I think this is a good policy. The purpose of running it X times is to reduce variance; running it twice provides a huge drop in variance, but the reduction in variance from each subsequent X is much smaller. More than twice gives very little benefit for the amount of time and hassle it causes.

Running it twice results in either one person scooping the pot or two people splitting the pot, both of which are easy to accommodate. Running it three times means splitting the pot into one-third and two-thirds, which is a pain.

If you wanted to, you could run it ten times. If you were just dealing the river, you could run it twenty times. But why bother?

  • I assume this is only done in Cash Games and not done in Tournament games? I only bring it up in case someone says, yeah - we do this during our tournaments (normal tournaments or perhaps just "wacky" tournaments). I'm thinking this might be an option for an "All in or Fold" tournament I heard about here on PCF... (read: "wacky" - and I DO mean that in an endearing way ;))
Some people might run tournaments where you can run it X times, but a properly run tournament will not allow this. In a tournament this is a form of collusion, because the results of every hand affect every player, even the players that aren't in the hand. This is not a concern in a cash game, because every hand is independent.
 

Eloe2000

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We allow it at our game but I personally don’t like to run it twice (or more). The players can decide how many times they want to run it.

The decision is often made before the other player even calls the bet at our game. For example Player A pushes all-in, and Player B will think and then ask Player A “can we run it twice?” And the. If Player A answers that question they will make a call decision. Regardless, it almost always is made before the cards are shown. And a lot of players at our game don’t show their cards after a call on an all-in or river bet.
 
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