Cards Speak - How would you handle? (1 Viewer)

[CraigT78]

So we had a hand this weekend that required a ruling. The hand was heads up and at showdown. Player one bet, player two called. Player one shows a flush and player two curses and tosses his hand, face up, into the center of the table (pot and muck). Player 3, not in the hand, says Hold up, you have a boat. Sure enough the river that gave player one the flush paired with the on the flop giving player one his boat. Rule #1 is that the cards speak and you do not have to call your hand correctly to have the best hand. This is not the question - the question is does his hand, which he tossed into the muck, face up, count? Player one argues that cards in the muck are just that, mucked. I ruled that the cards were face up, and player two showed his hand and stated, you beat my trip kings before tossing them in the center. There was no question what his hand was.

So - was I incorrect here with the ruling? Player one went on to rant that in his 20 years of casino play mucked cards were mucked cards. (Even though I have had the opposite experience at a casino on two occasions).

What say you?

 

[DrStrange]

The hand is live and tabled. It wins.

All the bets were called, we are past the time when it is easy to fold. This is showdown and the best hand is face up on the table. I surely don't want a ruling that says "if your tabled hand touches a mucked card it becomes dead, because that is the essence of the argument. I appreciate that that player two gave clues that made us think the meant to muck but he didn't. Tossing the winning hand face up the middle of the table does not kill the hand.

Bottom line, the best hand won. It takes a lot for me to rule against the best hand. -=- DrStrange

 

[MikesDad]

IMO you ruled correctly.
In my universe there's no such thing as a "magic muck" pile. The hand was face up, clearly identifiable as player 2's hand and it was the best hand at showdown.

No brainer in my game

 

[Chippy McChiperson]

The muck is not some magic place where cards get evaporated instantly if they touch it. His hand is face up, and cards speak. I understand player one's frustrations, but he's in the wrong here.

 

[Mental Nomad]

How I see it:

Face-down cards that touch the discards are mucked, even if the dealer is still holding them and they can be retracted; as soon as they touch the muck, they are dead. This is, in fact, how dealers intentionally kill cards before showing them on player request. This ensures that the hand is folded as intended, so they are dead and will not win, even if the folder misread them and actually has a winner.

Face-up cards tossed on the table are live. Although the player intended to discard them as losers, they were >shown< and, as such, are in the showdown, and cards speak for themselves. Shown cards show down. They are not lost to the muck if they aren't face-down, like the rest of the mucked cards.

 

[courage]

The hand is live and tabled. It wins.

All the bets were called, we are past the time when it is easy to fold. This is showdown and the best hand is face up on the table. I surely don't want a ruling that says "if your tabled hand touches a mucked card it becomes dead, because that is the essence of the argument. I appreciate that that player two gave clues that made us think the meant to muck but he didn't. Tossing the winning hand face up the middle of the table does not kill the hand.

Bottom line, the best hand won. It takes a lot for me to rule against the best hand. -=- DrStrange

^^this. You made the correct ruling imo.

 

[derekdd23]

Piling on here, You are correct and I have seen it called this way in every casino I have played in which is a lot.

 

[bergs]

Face up is live, cards speak, ship it (and I've seen several casinos rule this way regardless of where the cards fell face up).

 

[jbutler]

Not mucked - cards are live. If he's experienced otherwise in a casino he most likely got angled.

 

[bentax1978]

I'll make it an even ten votes; The hand is live.

 

[CraigT78]

Thanks all, 10/10 says I made the right call. I thought that I did, just wanted to make sure.

 

[H|Q]

Cards are easy discernible. Spirit of the game. Player with the flush should accept it.

 

[SixSpeedFury]

In regards to verbal binding, do you rule the same if the player states, "you got it", "good bet", "you beat me" or similar, while folding the best hand face up?

 

[CraigT78]

In regards to verbal binding, do you rule the same if the player states, "you got it", "good bet", "you beat me" or similar, while folding the best hand face up?

Yes I would. If he called and showed his cards while tossing them, he would be awarded the pot. My rule #1 is cards speak. I didn't base my original judgement on anything he said, just simply that I could see both of his cards.

 

[bentax1978]

In regards to verbal binding, do you rule the same if the player states, "you got it", "good bet", "you beat me" or similar, while folding the best hand face up?

Yes I would. If he called and showed his cards while tossing them, he would be awarded the pot. My rule #1 is cards speak. I didn't base my original judgement on anything he said, just simply that I could see both of his cards.

I agree with this as well. Once the call has been made to end the action, the only thing that matters is what the cards say. "Good bet", "nice call", "you got me", etc aren't relevant once the betting action is over.

 

[MaxB]

I did that at the casino last year .... didn't notice I had a flush (should have had my glasses on LOL). Thought I had 4 clubs, but I had 5. Threw the cards at the dealer face up with a grunt that I missed my flush, he said no you got it. Took the pot (a whopping 30 bucks or so) but still won it even though I thought I lost


edit: I was embarassed that I missed it. People joked at me for a while about it (y) :thumbsup:

 

[CraigT78]

I did that at the casino last year .... didn't notice I had a flush (should have had my glasses on LOL). Thought I had 4 clubs, but I had 5. Threw the cards at the dealer face up with a grunt that I missed my flush, he said no you got it. Took the pot (a whopping 30 bucks or so) but still won it even though I thought I lost


edit: I was embarassed that I missed it. People joked at me for a while about it (y) :thumbsup:

It happens to all of us. This is why I have Rule #1.

 

[MikesDad]

How I see it:

Face-down cards that touch the discards are mucked, even if the dealer is still holding them and they can be retracted; as soon as they touch the muck, they are dead.

Have to disagree here.... just touching the discard pile is not enough. If the cards are easily identifiable, then they're not mucked even if they touch the discard pile. That's why a good dealer will instinctively mix face down cards in the muck pile.
At least that's the way I've seen it in casinos I play in and in my home game.
YMMV

 

[CraigT78]

Have to disagree here.... just touching the discard pile is not enough. If the cards are easily identifiable, then they're not mucked even if they touch the discard pile. That's why a good dealer will instinctively mix face down cards in the muck pile.
At least that's the way I've seen it in casinos I play in and in my home game.
YMMV

I agree. My rule states - "A hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at host’s or Table Captains discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded because of incorrect information given to the player."

 

[Kyle]

Cards speak and full house wins. If he mucked face down then he loses.

 

[H|Q]

In regards to verbal binding, do you rule the same if the player states, "you got it", "good bet", "you beat me" or similar, while folding the best hand face up?

Declaring a hand is not the intent of binding verbal action. The verbal component is to keep people from angling their action.

The inverse argument. A player says he has a full house and realizes that he only has two pair when he shows. He can't be bound to his declaration.

 

[Mental Nomad]

In regards to verbal binding, do you rule the same if the player states, "you got it", "good bet", "you beat me" or similar, while folding the best hand face up?

The rule you're referring to is usually called "verbal actions are binding." Actions are things like raise, bet, call, fold... It is no longer possible to "fold" at the showdown; to have gotten to showdown, everyone has already called or checked! Before the showdown starts, all betting actions are completed, including all folds. After that point, it's just show or discard.

Reading a hand, however, is is not an action. That falls under the rule, "cards talk," or"cards speak..." which basically means it doesn't matter what the player says, the cards do the talking. If the cards are shown, they are shown, and "cards talk" takes over.

Have to disagree here.... just touching the discard pile is not enough. If the cards are easily identifiable, then they're not mucked even if they touch the discard pile. That's why a good dealer will instinctively mix face down cards in the muck pile.

IMO, the retreivability rule is about backing out of irregularities. We're not talking about an irregularity; we're talking about someone choosing to discard their own hand in the normal play of the game.

In dealer training school, I was taught that if a player asks to have a folded hand shown at showdown, we must first touch the cards to the muck to visibly kill the hand before turning the cards face-up. Otherwise, the cards turned over can be considered live, and "cards talk" takes over, and the shown hand can become the winner.

Many (most?) tournaments play a different rule as regards asking to show a folded hand on the river... if the winning player asks for it to be shown, the shown hand will always be considered live, but if someone else asks for it to be shown, it will be killed and considered a dead hand. (I only actually dealt cash games in casinos.)

That's why a good dealer will instinctively mix face down cards in the muck pile.

That's good practice, and it's what we were taught to do for regular folds... once it's no longer obvious whose cards are whose, people are much less likely to make a fuss about it for whatever reason. The common problem, however, are those many people who really, really, really want to show people what they folded because they "would have had it..."

 

[DJ Mack]

Exactly the right call as everyone else has said. We had a similar situation at one of our games. The fact that the cards are face up makes all the difference because it is very easy to identify and retrieve. As for mucking cards we follow the practice that cards are only officially mucked by the dealer and should they be face up, they will be turned face down and shoved into the pile. When a player folds the dealer will touch the cards and put them in the pile, even if they're already touching or landed in the pile. At that point it's abundantly clear that dead is dead. If the dealer doesn't touch and "stir the pot" there's always going to be that one time when someone thinks they're positive they can identify their cards when they have second thoughts.

Also kudos to player #3 in this situation - anybody who observes an irregularity during play is obligated to point it out forthwith regardless of whether or not it would help or hurt a specific person.

 

[Milo013]

Cards tabled, easily identifiable, full house showing, that beats a flush every time in my book. Flush is bitching because he lost. Pretty sure if the roles were reversed he'd be scooping his money quick enough.

 

[tommythecat]

@CraigT78

You have mentioned your rules a couple times. Are they posted where everyone can see them or handed out to new players to your game? If so, then the problem is moot. You ruled according to your house rules that everyone has access to. If they didn't bother to read them, tough shit.

 

[Dale_Doback]

Agreed that if the cards were without question identifiable, full house takes it.

I actually was player 3 at my regular game a few years back. My friend has the flush and the loud, aggressive drunk guy mucked his pocket queens face up. Even the dealer didn't catch the boat and said the flush wins, until I spoke up.

Few guys, and I'm sure some PCFers, are of the opinion that if you aren't in the hand, don't say anything but I'm of the opinion that cards speak for themselves no matter what.

 

[Chicken Rob]

Agreed that if the cards were without question identifiable, full house takes it.

I actually was player 3 at my regular game a few years back. My friend has the flush and the loud, aggressive drunk guy mucked his pocket queens face up. Even the dealer didn't catch the boat and said the flush wins, until I spoke up.

Few guys, and I'm sure some PCFers, are of the opinion that if you aren't in the hand, don't say anything but I'm of the opinion that cards speak for themselves no matter what.

I think it's good for the integrity of the game that cards speak, including pointing out dealer error.