Discussion in 'Group Buys' started by rjdev7, Nov 13, 2017.
Lol these cans are defective! Great movie!!!
He hates these cans!
You beat me to it
Update: GOCC has pulled out of the agreement and chose to no longer remake these chips for holdempokerchips. I don't know what this means for the future of the Egyptians, but it sounds like they'll continue to be very scarce! This will be my last post about the Egyptians. Unless someone has any $1s or $5s they want to sell me
That's too bad, seems like there is a market for these chips.
I’m betting there is a market for at least 25,000 of them over the next year. But I also pull numbers out of my butt and know next to nothing about chip sales forecasting
It was a good thing to prevent the ugliness that was about to ensue if this group buy went forward with artwork whose ownership is known and the ultimate owner/design head known for not being nice when his stuff is used without permission. Greg Cagle had always owned the design and I believe the artwork had some hands on work by Johnny5 who we all know. The Egyptians were produced by Greg in conjunction with HoldemPokerChips first followed closely by the Pharoah's Club Paulson Chips group buy that started CT many years ago. I'm sorry I had to bring it up and would definitely like to see them produced again but it seems the tangled web will have to be addressed first.
Ok so I lied. One more post from me, but about different Egyptians. GOCC informed me they’re making their own version of their own take on an Egyptian themed set. They’re going to let me know once they’re available. If they’re cool I’ll share them on PCF in case maybe we want to try this group buy again (without any tangled web of copyrights, etc.)
I foresee a lawsuit in the future.
Haha. At least I won’t be named
Done to death. Off the top of my head, all I can think of is the Paulson Pharohs and the Nile club ceramics, but there was definitely at least one china clay Egypt set, and maybe others. Oh and Luxor. I don’t know who was first and I couldn’t care less. But if anybody is keeping track of votes, my vote is for designing a set around ANY other theme.
I think a gladiators set would be cool.
Or Spartans, with a $300 chip.
I was thinking of a set around the Da vinci code with Illuminati symbolism and whatnot
Yeah, non-casino chips have been done several times: Egyptians and Nile Club in ceramic, Pyramids and Pharaoh's in china clay, and the original Pharaoh's Club on house mold Paulson chips. Not really an original theme anymore.
Club Cleopatra ASM also. As much as I might not like the players involved, these are awesome chips. It’s a shame this fell through.
Those were actually produced for a casino, not the home market.
That is not the case at all. Mr. Tree can attest to that, as we've contacted him in the past when people wanted to purchase his plaques from us. We were willing to work with Michael so that the group buy could continue. He agreed too sell them to Ryan (and the group) at 63¢ and then did the exact opposite and raised the price. At that time, we felt he went back on his word and have pulled out of manufacturing the chips.
Noble action, but that does not address the issue of your willingness to produce the Egyptian chips prior to and without having gained permissions to do so.
It sounds like @GameOnChipCompany is saying that Michael/HEPC was willing to sell the chips at 63¢ but later changed his/its mind and raised the price. I obviously don't know what happened, but if GOCC had permission to print the chips from Michael/HEPC, there is no issue with representing to the OP that they could produce the chips.
Of course, there are three sides to every story.
Except that GOCC assured the OP that they could produce the chips prior to anyone even contacting MSPatton. That was/is the basis of my concern, and an issue that they have not addressed.
We would dispute the premise that we don't have the rights to create these chips, but rather than going down that road, we have chosen not to make them at all and will produce a new Egyptian set for 2018. If you have questions or concerns about our practices, please feel free to email us at firstname.lastname@example.org but we will not address any additional posts on this matter moving forward. Thank you.
And as stated earlier, that position is a bit unsettling given the circumstances..... and with no elaboration or explaination on your part regarding the original copyright holders of artwork that just happens to be in your posession.
If GOCC is willing to print without original consent I can guarantee you they will never print one chip for me. That possession is 99% of the law, or, it's better to apologize later than ask for permission now, position is pure bullshit if that is what their claim of right to print is based on.
I agree that an explanation of why they feel they have the right to make these chips would be helpful.
I'm not vouching for the veracity of the statement, I'm merely saying that @GameOnChipCompany says they had the permission of Patton/HEPC (I assume that's the "He" in the bolded text above). If that's a true statement, then GOCC did nothing wrong in telling the OP the chips could be produced.
Of course, if that statements proves to be untrue, I am closer to (if not in) your camp.
But I wasn't there and I don't know who said what.
You're missing the point entirely. GOCC told OP chips could be produced BEFORE Patton/HEPC was even contacted about the group buy.
I'm not missing that point.
I just haven't seen it anywhere (and maybe that's my fault as I'm not following this thread closely).
I haven't seen where Patton/HEPC stated that there was no agreement to produce the chips before @GameOnChipCompany told the OP he would produce the chips. Only GOCC's statement that "He" agreed to sell them to Ryan and the group.
I love this digital world of social media, forums, and screen names.
It gives everyone the courage to engage in a way they never would if they had
to look you in the eye. Give me a keyboard and an Avatar!
I should not even have to be here writing this post but is seems folks like to cut little snippets
from conversations, post it, and call them facts. While those snippets standing alone may be fact,
they give the readers an impression that may not be accurate.
Since most here have no idea who I am.....
I am Michael Patton, I own www.HoldemPokerChips.com which was founded in 2003.
My email is email@example.com My phone # is 503.881.3004 and I answer it!
In 2004 Mr. Cagle (along with J5 as the designer) developed the Egyptian ceramic chips.
In that same year Mr. Cagle and I (HPC) entered into an agreement that HPC would be the sole producer and sales point for the Egyptians chips.
I (HPC) pay Mr Cagle a "royalty" on every chip, octagon, and plaque produced from this set. Basic Business 101. An exchange of something of
value for something of value. This agreement is still in place.
After Chipco ceased to exist (which I am not privy to the terms) I contacted GOCC in March of 2014 to see if I could convert these chips to their process. I was told "All the artwork went with the buyers of Chipco, but Game On was fortunate to grab a hold of the original designer from Chipco". Since I am not the owner of these chips, it was not my call to proceed to "re designing" these chips without Mr. Cagle’s permission which at the time I could not obtain as Mr. Cagle was not available to me. I was hoping the art was with GOCC and we could just proceed.
In March of 2016 I was able to have a conversation with Mr. Cagle and he granted me permission to pursue re-issuing these chips. I forwarded all the Chipco proof I had to GOCC as well as a physical sample of each chip. All these proofs are titled in either Mr. Cagle’s name, His business name (Lightning Solutions) or HoldemPokerChips. For whatever reason, after some conversations, this process stalled.
In June of 2017 I contacted GOCC to see if we could move this forward and got a call from someone I believe to be the owner. I was told GOCC had all the old artwork from all the projects Chipco did as well as all the sales history. They could easily re produce these chips for me. I asked that they do a run of 10 of each chip for me so I could evaluate them. In July of 2017 I received these chips and contacted GOCC via email with some correction to colors I was concerned about. I did not receive any addition contact at that time. Since HPC is not my main line of business these just set on my desk.
Monday Nov 13th I receive two emails from friends with links to a Group Buy on PCF for these chips. Since I do not frequent any of the forums at this time I was totally unaware this Group Buy was in process. Upon logging in I found a Private Message from the organizer of the buy asking for my approval for this Buy AFTER it was already in progress. I informed the organizer I was not the owner, but the seller and I was not interested in releasing my rights under my agreement with Mr. Cagle
This same morning I called GOCC to speak to them about the use of these chips. I left a voice mail. I received an email back asking "Please forward to me any documentation you may have from Greg Cagle or Chipco granting exclusive copyrights" I emailed the agreement with all the copies of the proofs to GOCC. (I have attached a cut out from this agreement). Mr Cagle also confirmed this agreement directly to GOCC
Same day I received a call from GOCC and we spoke about these chips. I was told it was an oversight that these were offered to this group and they wanted to do the "morally correct thing" GOCC also wanted to be able to provide the group with the chips they promised. After some discussion I agreed to "go back to the organizer and try to accommodate the buy here on PCF". I DID NOT agree to match the prices GOCC was offering, as by my agreement with Mr. Cagle requires me to pay a royalty on EVERY chip produced. I agree to try to accommodate a group buy that should not have been in place to begin with
I messaged the organizer on PCF and this is what I offered. (Posted in Full)
Here is what we can work out on the Egyptians.....
You continue to run the buy as you have.
We will set a deadline after I have samples in hand that I am happy with
I will place two orders. One for my inventory, one for your group.
Your group will be shipped directly to you.
Each 39mm round chip in your buy will have to be in multiples of 100 or you will have to ship extras to me. (This may change and I MIGHT be able to get GOCC to ship exact qty's)
Chips will arrive to you in 100ct cardboard boxes
Chips will arrive to you postage paid
39mm Rounds will be .70c (an increase on your .63c basically reflected in cost of shipping to you and the cardboard boxing they add to order)
44mm Octagons will be $1.35
Plaques will be $5.00
These prices will include the boxes and shipping to you
You will ship all the group orders and collect proper shipping to the members for these.
Note in my previous pictures the new GOCC chips are on the left in each example. It is my hope to get a better color match.
In the "racked chips" there is one old chip in the middle of the new chips to show edge color differences.
Let me know what you think of this offer.
This offer is basically identical with the exception of the 39mm rounds were .63c + shipping to organizer (approx. .02c per chip) and the cardboard box to ship in (approx. .01c). So the group expected to pay .66c per, I raised that to .70c to help offset the royalty I am required to pay Mr. Cagle. BTW, the royalty per chip is more than the .04c per and under the Group Buy he was to get NOTHING!
I received the following message from the organizer.....Posted in full with my reply between the **** *****
Thanks for the update. When I spoke with Erica she quoted me at $98.97 for shipping 5,000 chips. $.70 / chip is going to cost more than double that.
Why can't we honor that original shipping price + the original prices she quoted me at:
$.63 per 39mm
$1.35 per 44mm Octagon
$5.00 per plaque
****As with any business transaction, there is an exchange involved. I did not come by the rights to produce and sell these chips for free. There is a cost for these rights****
She also didn't have restrictions on the multiples of 100, since we already spoke about minimums. As long as I placed 50 of each denomination she was happy.
****That may be true. As I noted in the past, my communication has been limited with them and we are still working out details. I wanted to get you something ASAP****
In other words, would it be unreasonable for us (you and me) to have GOCC honor their deal for a one time order of 5000 chips directly to me (for the Group Buy, which I will then distribute to everyone as originally planned) at the above cost and shipping amount?
****There is an agreement in place and GOCC does not have the right to produce these chips except to me and the owner of the set. GOCC is not in a position to offer you any deal on these chips. I have purchased the rights to produce these chips an pay for that right with a royalty on every chip I have produced****
I don't understand why you would need to place both orders if they're going to ship directly to me.
****Again, Myself and the owner of the set are the only ones authorized to have these made. The order needs to come from me. If this is a deal breaker along with the .04c a chip then so be it. I have been working under this deal since 2004 and have recently spent additional funds to GOCC to get these back into production. They do not make samples available to me for free. This agreement is an asset to me and my business and I feel this pricing is VERY accommodating to this group, especially given the alternative available****
Curious to hear your thoughts on the above.
At this point it is my assumption that the organizer contacted GOCC, as on Tuesday they emailed me about why I could not match the offer they made to the group. I returned the same explanation (with additional details) to GOCC.
On Wednesday I am informed by GOCC that "This is more complicated than my wildest dreams. I’m pulling us out of this group buy"
On Wednesday the organizer posts on here "Update: GOCC has pulled out of the agreement and chose to no longer remake these chips for holdempokerchips. I don't know what this means for the future of the Egyptians, but it sounds like they'll continue to be very scarce! This will be my last post about the Egyptians. Unless someone has any $1s or $5s they want to sell me"
When I asked GOCC about this I got this reply "When we got off the phone the other day you agreed to allow this one sale at the pricing we promised to the group buy. I felt you went back on your word"
The balance of this post is my personal thoughts and opinions on this topic......
1. This Buy should not have been established without contacting me in advance
2. GOCC should have referred the organizer to me when contacted
3. Now that my willingness to help out with and to accommodate the buy, and GOCC believing that was my offer to allow the buy to continue at the same prices and terms were not one in the same, no one gets chips. Remember, GOCC did not have the right to make this offer in the first place. This was a phone conversation and as such is a "he said / she said circumstance and seems to be the issue here. And by posting little snippets without background makes me look like the "Bad Guy". That's Cool by me. In reality I am just a business person trying to make a living and protecting my assets.
I feel that I have been more then accommodating in what I offered, and the offer would have made everyone happy.
The group would have gotten a deal of over 20% off what these would have retailed for on my site. Even at the .04c a chip hike
GOCC would have had a new client for a set of chips that could have been well over 20,000 produced and their "oversight" in agreeing to supply these chips to the group would have been fulfilled, if even at a higher .04c a chip
HPC could have re-introduced these to our fans, and who knows, maybe one of my many other designs I have had for years may have made it out of the digital world and onto little ceramic disc's.
As it is now, it appears that the Egyptians have been locked up and will remain as a memory as one of the all-time greats HPC brought to market in the chip heyday
Mine eyes have see the light.
Tip of the cap, Michael. Glad you got a tip that someone was about to violate your agreement prior to it actually happening.
Given that thorough explanation, not sure how @GameOnChipCompany could claim they had @MSPatton's permission, but I don't really think I want to pick that scab anyway.
There are chips to be made and money to be made. Squash the beef and move on!
Well, I think that just about wraps it up. Sorry this caused you such a headache @MSPatton!
Separate names with a comma.