Cash Game All-in not a full raise, can next player raise? (1 Viewer)

[p5woody]

I am not an experienced cash game player. What is the correct ruling here?

We are playing dealer choice ante games. I have two scenarios, not sure if it matters.

Scenario 1:
Player 1 - raises $10 dollars
Player 2 - raises it $10 making it a total of $20 dollars for player 3 to call
Player 3 - goes all in for $22 dollars total ( so $12 for player 1 to call and $2 for player 2 to call)

Can Player 4 raise if they haven't acted yet?
Assuming remaining players fold, can Player 1 or Player 2 now raise since the last action wasn't a full raise?


Scenario 2:
Player 1 - raises $10 dollars
Player 2 - just calls
Player 3 - goes all in for $12 total ( so $2 for player 1 and player 2 to call)

Assuming remaining players fold, can Player 1 or Player 2 now raise since the last action wasn't a full raise?

 

[Ronoh]

Only one who can raise in either scenario is P4

 

[BGinGA]

Scenario 1:
Player 1 - raises $10 dollars
Player 2 - raises it $10 making it a total of $20 dollars for player 3 to call
Player 3 - goes all in for $22 dollars total ( so $12 for player 1 to call and $2 for player 2 to call)

Can Player 4 raise if they haven't acted yet?
Assuming remaining players fold, can Player 1 or Player 2 now raise since the last action wasn't a full raise?

Player 4 can raise.
Player 1 can raise.
Player 2 can only call, unless a full raise has been made before it gets back to his action.

Scenario 2:
Player 1 - raises $10 dollars
Player 2 - just calls
Player 3 - goes all in for $12 total ( so $2 for player 1 and player 2 to call)

Assuming remaining players fold, can Player 1 or Player 2 now raise since the last action wasn't a full raise?

Neither Player 1 or Player 2 can raise, unless a full raise has been made before it gets back to their action.

 

[BGinGA]

Only one who can raise in either scenario is P4

Not true, Player 1 can still raise in scenario 1.

 

[p5woody]

Okay, I think I got it.
In scenario 1 - since player 2 raised it re-opened the betting for player 1 and player 4 always has the option since they haven't acted yet.
In scenario 2 - since a full raise was never made it doesn't re-open the betting.

Thanks!

 

[MrWitti]

Is it if not half of a proper raise its considered a "call"?

 

[Ronoh]

Not true, Player 1 can still raise in scenario 1.

Pre-7am on a weekend is no time for me to discuss poker actions... never saw P2 reraise

 

[Mental Nomad]

Is it if not half of a proper raise its considered a "call"?

You're probably thinking of the 50% rule, which is different. That is:

Say P1 says "bet" and bets 4. P2 says "raise" makes it 8. P3 says nothing and throws in a handful of chips.

Did P3 call, or raise?

For P3, the minimum legal raise is 4 more, or 12 chips. If they threw in less than 12, it's unclear what they meant, so the 50% rule is used.

If they threw in 9 chips, it looks like a call, so it's a call. If they threw in 11 chips, it looks like a raise, so it's a raise, and they have to add another chip.

If they threw in 10 chips, it's exactly 50% of a legal raise. The 50% rule says that it is an intentional raise, and they must pony up another two chips.

@BGinGA gave the correct answer to the OP's question, from my experience... assuming this is a no-limit game.

If playing Limit, there's one other thing to consider: "completing the bet."

If this was a game of Limit on a $10 round, you could have the following:

P1 bets $10.
P2 bets $20 (a raise, now two bets total.)
P3 goes all-in for $26.

Now what?

P4 can call $26. (P1 can still raise, P2 can not, even though P2 would have to call another $6.)
P4 can also make it $30. This is called "completing the bet," which complete's P3's raise. (P1 and P2 both can raise.)
P4 can also make it $36. This would be a natural full raise of the current $26 bet. (P1 and P2 both can raise.)
P4 can also (in some houses) make it $40. This would be a natural full raise of P3's intended raise. This is an unusual house rule to allow.

Where the last (rare) option is allowed, I think it may be subject to a kind of 50% rule... that is, if the all-in was more than 50% of a raise, then the next player can treat it as a full second raise and put in the full third raise (making it four bets to play.) In that kind of game, if P4 and other didn't raise, I don't think that P2 gets the option to raise, but I'm not sure; maybe they do. You'd have to find a house playing the odd rule and see. These days, I don't think anyone does it... now that everyone can look up standard house rules online, there's a less variation out there.

Again, this is unusual - and there's no "completing the bet" in no-limit, at all. Because there's no "structure" to try to slot into, any raise someone wants to put in must be a legal raise. And I suspect P5 was asking about no-limit.

 

[BGinGA]

Hmmm.... I thought sure you'd be the one to address when multiple all-in bets actually total up to a legal raise amount and re-opens the betting.

As Fink noted, 7 a.m. was too early to fully address the issue(s).

 

[Mental Nomad]

Hmmm.... I thought sure you'd be the one to address when multiple all-in bets actually total up to a legal raise amount and re-opens the betting.

Hmmm... Never crossed my mind. The general rule is to consider an all-in for less than a legal raise as a "call plus extra..." but more than one extra can add up to a legal raise, from P2's perspective... Neat. I can imagine a floor calling it either way. And, to be honest, P1 could well fold, making it a three-way all-in, anyway.

 

[inca911]

Hmmm.... I thought sure you'd be the one to address when multiple all-in bets actually total up to a legal raise amount and re-opens the betting.

As Fink noted, 7 a.m. was too early to fully address the issue(s).

I would not have thought of that, yet another reason I like this site so much! Thanks for that extra bit of info, Dave

 

[Psypher1000]

Geebis, we're nerds. I love it.