Tourney Add on (1 Viewer)

[Jz44]

Hey guys, been awhile. I wanted some opinions on this. I'm going to play day 1 of a $150* $50k guaranteed 2 day tournament tomorrow night that has 2 add-ons and I don't think I've seen something like the 2nd one before.

For $150 you get T10k, the standard $10 staff appreciation add on gets you an additional T10k, and a 2nd optional $50 add on gets you a chip that you can redeem at the table, at any time including the hand after you bust, for T20k.

The tourney starts out at 25/50 and on day 1 you play 18 20 minutes (hand shuffled), 10 handed levels ending at T1k/T3k/T6k.

When do you redeem the 20k chip?

Do you start with 40k, use it as a 2nd bullet, redeem at a specific level, use it if you get to a specific chip stack?

My instinct is start with more chips, but they aren't really going to be worth much that early either so a free rebuy sounds nice. I also don't see anything in the flyer that suggests you have to redeem before registration ends, so it looks like you could save it until day 2. You'd be extremely short, but it might get you an orbit to sneak past a bubble or pay jump.

Thoughts?

 

[DoubleEagle]

My experience has been the add-on chip must be used at or before the end of the registration period. If that’s the case, I hold it until then unless I get felted earlier. If good any time, then I have no experience. Seems I probably would use it when I need to chip back up to the average stack.

 

[trigs]

I used to be of the mindset that I want all the chips I can get right away and start with a monster stack. However, I think I'm now leaning towards keeping the add-on until I bust, until I have to use it (end of registration), or if I'm too below the average stack size.

If it's a bounty/knock out tournament, I'm cashing it in right away so I cover most other stacks.

 

[BGinGA]

Start with as many chips as possible. Nothing worse than leaving chips in somebody else's stack because you didn't have them covered (but could have).

 

[trigs]

Start with as many chips as possible. Nothing worse than leaving chips in somebody else's stack because you didn't have them covered (but could have).

That's how I used to feel but I don't think it's as simple as this.

 

[Jz44]

Start with as many chips as possible. Nothing worse than leaving chips in somebody else's stack because you didn't have them covered (but could have).

That was my original instinct, but the more I think about it I'm leaning toward saving it until, in order of preference; I get short (5-10BB), I am required to, or I bust.

That may change if I end up at a table that's all playing 40k early though.

There are no bounties, but I'm assuming the option of either a double stack or "free" rebuy are going to turn the aggression factor up in this tournament so it should be fun.

 

[Darthhoodie]

I would also wan't to start with the 40k, and defiantly do it if that's what most people are doing. Not interested in having a 20k stack surrounded by 40k stacks.

Edit: The more I think about it, would be hard to convince me to not start with as many chips as possible. I don't understand "the wait till I bust out" reason. Am I missing something?

 

[JustinInMN]

My instinct is hold it until you are broke or at least within few blinds of broke. But I can see merit the other way.

I would generally prefer a second chance if I get coolered or something.

But the downside of that is I could miss out on chips if I was to win a confrontation with a larger stack.

But in general tournament poker rewards survival over the acquisition of chips. (Though these goals often coincide, I grant, but not always.) So that's why I am on the save it until you need it side. But I could be persuaded.

 

[Darthhoodie]

I guess I get the point. (n) :thumbsdown:

Just to play devils advocate, its easier to survive with more chips than everyone else :

Just a few scenarios:

1) I am at a table where everyone else held on to their 20k chip, and I have a 40k stack, I have everyone covered and have an advantage due to the large stack.
2) I am at a table where everyone cashed their 20K chip but me, yuck, I am short stacked compared to the average stack.
You might say that I still have the 20k chip so if I get knocked out early I can still cash the 20k.
Yes, still bad because everyone else started with 40k, so I may not be out, but I am again short stacked.
3) Some held on to the 20k and some cashed in the 20k, I think in this case I would rather be the guy with 40k than the guy with 20k and a safety net.

Like I said, I would start with the 40k. I am not a pro tournament player, just my preference. I am sure there are others who would do it differently but this debate may be like .

Good luck in the tournament regardless of what you choose to do with the second addon !!

 

[BGinGA]

For several years, one of our league tournament series has used T10K starting stacks with a 10K plaque that does not play, but can be redeemed for another T10K in chips anytime between hands (including before the first hand). It automatically converts to 10K in chips after six levels (2 hours). Starting blinds are 50/100, so 100bb if starting short-stacked, or 200bb if you start with the full monty.

Rough breakdown on how it gets used:

• 25% redeem it immediately.
• 50% redeem it sometime during the two hour window, usually after getting busted or suffering a large loss.
• 25% redeem it when forced after the two hour window expires.

Of those 25% that redeem it immediately, nearly all are considered among the stronger players in the group.
Of those 50% that start with 10K but redeem it sometime during the window, about half are considered strong players.
Of those 25% that don't redeem it until forced, none are considered strong players.

So of the stronger players (about 50% of the group overall), about half take the big stack, and about half opt for the safety cushion. The cash rate and average points earned of the big stack group is definitely higher than the cash/points rate of the safety cushion group. With the exception of one safety cushion player, it's heavily weighted in favor of those starting with the bigger stack.

The longer you wait to redeem it, the less valuable those chips become. The biggest issue I've observed with having the bigger stack is those players who go overboard on trying to push it around, and end up dumping large amounts of chips to more patient players with smaller stacks. One strong player kept falling into this trap, and has had much better success since starting with a cushion. And that lone strong player who had good results playing with a cushion has since moved to taking the bigger stack initially, and his results have spiked significantly. He's now a convert to the 'more chips' camp.

Depending on your personality and play style, it may be more beneficial for you personally to have that safety cushion, but I think in general with a solid thinking player, more chips is +EV and the better choice.

 

[Jz44]

For several years, one of our league tournament series has used T10K starting stacks with a 10K plaque that does not play, but can be redeemed for another T10K in chips anytime between hands (including before the first hand). It automatically converts to 10K in chips after six levels (2 hours). Starting blinds are 50/100, so 100bb if starting short-stacked, or 200bb if you start with the full monty.

Rough breakdown on how it gets used:

• 25% redeem it immediately.
• 50% redeem it sometime during the two hour window, usually after getting busted or suffering a large loss.
• 25% redeem it when forced after the two hour window expires.

Of those 25% that redeem it immediately, nearly all are considered among the stronger players in the group.
Of those 50% that start with 10K but redeem it sometime during the window, about half are considered strong players.
Of those 25% that don't redeem it until forced, none are considered strong players.

So of the stronger players (about 50% of the group overall), about half take the big stack, and about half opt for the safety cushion. The cash rate and average points earned of the big stack group is definitely higher than the cash/points rate of the safety cushion group. With the exception of one safety cushion player, it's heavily weighted in favor of those starting with the bigger stack.

The longer you wait to redeem it, the less valuable those chips become. The biggest issue I've observed with having the bigger stack is those players who go overboard on trying to push it around, and end up dumping large amounts of chips to more patient players with smaller stacks. One strong player kept falling into this trap, and has had much better success since starting with a cushion. And that lone strong player who had good results playing with a cushion has since moved to taking the bigger stack initially, and his results have spiked significantly. He's now a convert to the 'more chips' camp.

Depending on your personality and play style, it may be more beneficial for you personally to have that safety cushion, but I think in general with a solid thinking player, more chips is +EV and the better choice.

Interesting. Are rebuys allowed in this tournament after losing the chip? This data makes me lean back towards my original take the chips early line.

 

[BGinGA]

Interesting. Are rebuys allowed in this tournament after losing the chip? This data makes me lean back towards my original take the chips early line.

One version allows limited re-buys (one per player, up to the maximum field size), the other has no re-buys.

I suspect that allowing unrestricted re-buys (even one per player, no cap) would swing the balance heavily in favor of taking the maximum number of chips, since there is less of a need for a safety net. You bust, you re-buy.

 

[DoubleEagle]

Of those 25% that redeem it immediately, nearly all are considered among the stronger players in the group.
Of those 50% that start with 10K but redeem it sometime during the window, about half are considered strong players.
Of those 25% that don't redeem it until forced, none are considered strong players.

We run a couple of second chance tourneys every year. My experience is exactly opposite of yours.

 

[Jz44]

We run a couple of second chance tourneys every year. My experience is exactly opposite of yours.

Just when I thought I'd made my mind up!

By the time I get off work I'll probably miss a level or so, and that should give me a good idea of where everyone is and what the wizards are doing, and I'll adjust from there. I'm back to leaning towards talking the extra ammo up front though.

 

[trever]

Would you rather pay $50 for 100bb worth of chips now, or would you prefer to pay $50 for 10bb worth of chips later?

 

[BGinGA]

We run a couple of second chance tourneys every year. My experience is exactly opposite of yours.

Interesting. Opposite in terms of the percentages of who starts with the larger stacks, or opposite in terms of results of those starting with larger stacks? Would like to hear your experience.

 

[Jz44]

Would you rather pay $50 for 100bb worth of chips now, or would you prefer to pay $50 for 10bb worth of chips later?

That's probably the best and simplest way to frame it.

 

[Wils]

Take the full amount as soon as you can. If you're scared of getting coolered go and watch Rhoda reruns instead

 

[Jz44]

Well I made every possible wrong decision all night and busted out in the first level after registration ended. It was pretty unanimous to take the chips though. We had two OMC's that didn't but the ad on, one older lady who say on her's, and everyone else took them immediately