A PLO/8 adventure....

bergs

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Game: PLO/8; (25c/50c/$1 semi-mandatory straddle; $125 max buyin). 6 handed. I cover all other players.

Cast: Hero ($650) has a (accurate) hyper LAG image; villain ($450) in the hand is newish to PLO/8...understands how to play but isn't always completely sure how to read the low side of a hi/lo hand.

Hand: Hero (OTB) and looks down at 2348r. Two field players call the straddle and the villain (CO) calls. Hero raises to $4 and gets two calls (field player and villain). ~$15 in the pot.

Flop is A84r. Checks around to Hero, who bets $10. Field player folds, villain calls. ~$35 in pot.

Turn is a K, putting 2 clubs on the board. Villain checks, Hero pots for $35. Villain raises to $75.

WWYD?
 

bergs

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If you recommend potting, two questions: 1) what hand (hi, lo, or both) are we putting villain on, and 2) are we willing to get it in here?

If you recommend calling, one question: 1) what hand (hi, lo, or both) are we putting villain on?
 

xt!

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New to PLO8- he has AKxx 85% +. Sometimes he has a bad low, sometimes he has backup clubs, sometime he has nut low only, sometimes he thinks he has a good low and is crushed, <1% he has nut low and a high and you're quartered. I'm stacking off if raised (ldo) but I figure I have way enough equity and fold equity to jam here
 

bergs

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New to PLO8- he has AKxx 85% +. Sometimes he has a bad low, sometimes he has backup clubs, sometime he has nut low only, sometimes he thinks he has a good low and is crushed, <1% he has nut low and a high and you're quartered. I'm stacking off if raised (ldo) but I figure I have way enough equity and fold equity to jam here

My high isn't that good anymore with 2 over cards on the board.

If he's playing any sort of low here, it's the nut low. He's not raising turn with the 2nd but low (and I don't think he's misread his hand though it's possible if there were 4 lows on the board).

What if we assume that villain is never folding?

(he's never folding with the reraise he just made - there is zero chance of him laying the hand down - does they change how we range him right now?)
 

H|Q

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Our hand is very strong. I don't want to run him out here. Call turn. Bet river from position.

A 2 or 3 really weakens our hand here. We have position and strong hand with an active better. Let's see what the river brings.
 

bergs

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UPDATE:

Game: PLO/8; (25c/50c/$1 semi-mandatory straddle; $125 max buyin). 6 handed. I cover all other players.

Cast: Hero ($650) has a (accurate) hyper LAG image; villain ($450) in the hand is newish to PLO/8...understands how to play but isn't always completely sure how to read the low side of a hi/lo hand.

Hand: Hero (OTB) and looks down at 2348r. Two field players call the straddle and the villain (CO) calls. Hero raises to $4 and gets two calls (field player and villain). ~$15 in the pot.

Flop is A84r. Checks around to Hero, who bets $10. Field player folds, villain calls. ~$35 in pot.

Turn is a K, putting 2 clubs on the board. Villain checks, Hero pots for $35. Villain raises to $75. Hero calls. Pot is ~$185.

River is another K (board = A84KKr). Villain tries to bet $275 and pulls some back when told that the max bet is $185.

- Do I fold if I think that villain could have a lock low? My two pair just turned into Kings up with a pair of measly 8s. 2399 and better beats me now.
- Do I call and hope I'm getting half?
- Is there ever an argument for raising here? Villain has around $200 left after he potted river.
 

Ben

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If he's never folding, I call. 3 likely scenarios:

1) We're quartered with a slim redraw to the high
2) He's quartered with a slim redraw to the high
3) We're chopping, each with little/no redraw to the other half.

This is the equivalent of WA/WB in HE. Call here. If river is a 2 or 3 and he bets, fold. If river changes nothing, call. If river is an 8 or 4, go nuts.

Also PFR after limpers is spewtastic. But I understand you've got an image to uphold. :p
 

Ben

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I call. High was no good anyway and he just filled up. If 5-card I might think about folding, with 4 cards odds he has nut low also are astronomical.
 

courage

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Because villain just called on flop, I think we're ahead. On the turn I would think likely still ahead and it's due to villain image (inexperienced, playing one-way hands) but I like the flat. On turn villain backed into trup KK or AK... if he has nut low also, NHGG. Bad river card but I'm only folding here to a good player. No confidence our high hand is good but not giving up my half of the pot. Never raising river here, villain has something he's married to.
 

bergs

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Also PFR after limpers is spewtastic. But I understand you've got an image to uphold. :p

I raised pot pre-flop every hand for over 2 hours. Every. Single. One. People were limping and pre-loading the pot sized bet waiting for me to fire it out there. Also, the only empty seat at the table was directly to my right. LOL.
 
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Chippy McChiperson

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Call. If he also has the low, there is decent chance your KK884 is good. he could easily have 2345, 2356, 2367, 2377, or 23 with air just as easily as a higher pocket pair, king, or eight with a better kicker.
 

bergs

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Nobody in the fold camp? What about if it were a significantly more experienced hi/lo player?
 

Ben

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I'd call even quicker if it were an experienced player - literally the ONLY quartering hand a decent player can show up with here is exactly KK23. Is he really "inexperienced" enough that he would limp-call / check-call with AK23 or K823? I guess K432 is possible - still never folding.
 

Mental Nomad

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Factoring in your reputation, no. No fold, no way.

You've got a lock on a quarter, and you're calling for a third... If you do better than quarter once in six times, you're good to call, and that assumes you never win the high... and with your reputation, there is too good a chance villain is hoping to scoop with non - nut lows and a strong high.

(fwiw, I have villain on a flush more often than trips or full)

Then again, I'm no PLO8 player.
 

courage

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berg, sorry, I was vague. "good player" wasn't accurate since a good player may try to push us off the hand at some point. nitty player I have lots of history with is more accurate. Someone who I can be certain bets the low on flop but backs into a high hand. Even then I think you gotta call and see it.
 

xt!

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You're guaranteed 1/4 of the pot and getting 2:1 on your money... so in the rare case he has the top and the bottom you lose $45 on your call, when you take the low you make 92 on your call. If you call and somehow quarter him you make 230.

Let's be very pessimistic and say 25% you're quartered, 70% you chop, and 5% you quarter... that is a net +$65 on a very easy call.
 

bergs

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RESULTS:

Game: PLO/8; (25c/50c/$1 semi-mandatory straddle; $125 max buyin). 6 handed. I cover all other players.

Cast: Hero ($650) has a (accurate) hyper LAG image; villain ($450) in the hand is newish to PLO/8...understands how to play but isn't always completely sure how to read the low side of a hi/lo hand.

Hand: Hero (OTB) and looks down at 2348r. Two field players call the straddle and the villain (CO) calls. Hero raises to $4 and gets two calls (field player and villain). ~$15 in the pot.

Flop is A84r. Checks around to Hero, who bets $10. Field player folds, villain calls. ~$35 in pot.

Turn is a K, putting 2 clubs on the board. Villain checks, Hero pots for $35. Villain raises to $75. Hero calls. Pot is ~$185.

River is another K (board = A84KKr). Villain tries to bet $275 and pulls some back when told that the max bet is $185.

I end up tanking for a couple minutes...I've convinced myself that he's got K23 given how he sort of woke up on the K on the turn when the K hit and wanted to overbet everything when the 2nd K hit the river. I'd been bet/folding more than usual and really didn't want to let this go...I'd never folded the nut low at PLO8 before (and I know this is probably a pretty massive leak).

I finally called and asked "you have the lock low" and he nodded yes and I groaned expecting to get quartered....he has 2369r....and after another 30 seconds, I realize that my two pair is good for the high and I end up quartering him.

I posted this because I was wondering if I got lucky here and called incorrectly. Doesn't sound like anyone thinks that's the case....I damn near folded. Very, very close to folding.

I guess this begs the question - does anyone have an example where they folded the nut low on the river HU in a PLO8 hand?
 

bergs

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He's a better o8 player than you are giving credit for.

I was basing this on him asking questions about what qualified as a low with a A2458 board previously (he had 23 and didn't think it was good) and another hand where he had something like A4 and thought it was a low on a A48JJ board.

When someone asked him why he raised he said he thought I'd fold...maybe he saw me bet/folding a lot and thought he had some fold equity...most people here that have played with me are surprised when I fold (at all). As it was, he almost got me to lay down a lock low for the first time at a big bet game.
 

bergs

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What did I say? I knew your eights were good lol. Nh gg

I guess so, but the call felt spewy to me. I was really, really frustrated with the frequency I was (correctly) betting and folding so at the time it felt like I was in "aw fuck it" mode and got lucky....
 

DrStrange

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I can imagine a situation where I would fold a sure 1/4 pot paying 1/3 of the pot to call but it would be rare. I need to have no chance at high and a super villain read.

For example, villain only raises on A2xx and did raise. Hero holds A236 and the board is 4 5 T J J.

Hero is getting two to one on the final call even if he has no hope of high. I am not so sure about the Omaha villains I know to lay that down hardly ever.

DrStrange
 
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