50c/$1 hold’em on Windy Crest (2 Viewers)

[kmccormick100]

Hero is in late position in a 5 handed pot. A bet and a raise before the action gets to hero is a pretty common occurrence. If that's a going to make hero blush when we flop near our best, then just fold pre. You are basically only calling for flopped hands, no price justifies that.

I think middle raises here are lighter than a lot of people are saying here. There is huge motivation to isolate with everything reasonable band a lot of dead money in this pot. I suppose that's why my thinking informs fo for the jam here.

What range of hands do you put the BB and UTG1 here on? We’re probably doing well against one of them, but not both combined unless they both happen to have an ace and no heart draw. Not to mention we have 3 callers behind us left to act...

 

[ChaosRock]

Hero is in late position in a 5 handed pot. A bet and a raise before the action gets to hero is a pretty common occurrence. If that's a going to make hero blush when we flop near our best, then just fold pre. You are basically only calling for flopped hands, no price justifies that.

I think middle raises here are lighter than a lot of people are saying here. There is huge motivation to isolate with everything reasonable band a lot of dead money in this pot. I suppose that's why my thinking informs fo for the jam here.

The problem is that we have no value range when we shove. The only value hand we could have is three combos of 77 and even those we re-raise let’s say 50% of the time pre. So we have 1.5 value combos in our range.

 

[JustinInMN]

Hero smashes the flop hard. Then UTG+1 says "me too, want to play for stacks?" Best case I see for hero is a coin flip plus some faint fold equity.

Wouldn't you at least consider a call for 2:1 here?

 

[JustinInMN]

The problem is that we have no value range when we shove. The only value hand we could have is three combos of 77 and even those we re-raise let’s say 50% of the time pre. So we have 1.5 value combos in our range.

This is an interesting thought actually. It is true 77 is the only value hand I could have as hero and would shove. So I suppose a "balance" justification here makes less sense.

Maybe a call is better. And instead should be shoving more of our Ah-xh hands which hero can also have, makes for better blockers too.

 

[DrStrange]

Nope, not calling. Jam > fold > call.

Why? First thing is getting sucky odds. Let's be optimistic that all of Hero's outs are good and no one is going to reopen the betting. Hero has ~~25% to improve on the turn. And the pot is laying a bit better than 2:1. You might say "implied odds!" And I retort, "Reverse implied odds!!!"

Second thing, hero can't assume too much about his so called "Outs". Sure the one out straight flush draw is good. After that, who knows? What is Hero's plan vs a villain jam on a heart turn? Same thing with an off suit ten vs a jam?

Third, what is hero's plan on a turn brick? Does he call another bet getting similar odds?

Fourth, Hero can't assume his call closes the action, it doesn't. It could easily be that the player in the blinds just jams all in and reopens the betting. And even if UTG+1 villain just flats, can Hero justify a second pile of chips going in the pot? < FWIW, I'd fear the flat as much as a jam if not more. >

SO no, calling is not on my menu. IF Hero can't find a jam in his hand, then the best option is to fold.

Like I said, it is a puke fold though -=- DrStrange

 

[JustinInMN]

Are you not worried about the reverse implied odds of facing a better flush draw or worse, the Ace high flush draw? How deep do you need to be before this becomes a real concern for you?

Depth is an argument to call pre and fold post flop? I recognize there is a percentage of the time hero will run into bigger flush draws here, but that's always a risk when playing 9 hi connectors.

I guess I am willing to be wrong on this, but then I think since no one hinted at folding this pre, we should re-evaluate this calling reflex.

What range of hands do you put the BB and UTG1 here on? We’re probably doing well against one of them, but not both combined unless they both happen to have an ace and no heart draw. Not to mention we have 3 callers behind us left to act...

I think BB can have 77, J7, A7, Ax, and hearts both bigger and smaller. I don't think I would give BB much pure air here, the "bluffs" would mostly be hearts.

I think utg can be pretty wide here. Can have AA, AJ, JJ, AK, AQ, maybe AT, I have a hard time giving any heart combos except for the above and maybe KQ and, obviously those represent the worst case. It's hard for me to give UTG KK, QQ here unless he is trying to pressure BB by turning these hands into bluffs. I think determining if there are more bluffs than this is key to the decision.

At first glance it seemed to me bigger hearts and a pair UTG won't fold was a worst case scenario, maybe it's more common than I thought.

 

[Frogzilla]

Pre: call it blinds aren’t squeezy, raise to $18-20 if they are squeezy. On WC I’m probably leaning call.

Flop I hate life. That’s a seriously tough spot. I bust out the ole randomizer, 50 fold / 50 jambo

 

[Rhodeman77]

I think we have had a very good discussion of the possible pitfalls to continuing with this hand but our Hero is fearless and has never heard the term reverse implied odds before!!! In texting with him about the hand afterwards he said “I didn’t play 89hh preflop to fold on this flop!”

So our brave (if not bright) Hero makes the (easy to him) call.

But the action does not end with his call. The Button folds, and BB jams all-in for just under $100 total. UTG+1 also ships all-in!!!

Action is back to Hero yet again. Now having to call $155~ to win $350~.

What does our Hero do?

 

[ChaosRock]

Side pot would be $200ish if Hero calls, Adam?

 

[Rhodeman77]

Side pot would be $200ish if Hero calls, Adam?

Correct, side pot is about $200.

 

[ChaosRock]

Regardless, I fold.

Very hard for Hero to be against two high value hands and even if that’s the case. If one of the Villains has us crushed on the hearts we might have only 4 outs max. Yeah, it’s a fold for me, although close.

 

[JustinInMN]

I think we have had a very good discussion of the possible pitfalls to continuing with this hand but our Hero is fearless and has never heard the term reverse implied odds before!!! In texting with him about the hand afterwards he said “I didn’t play 89hh preflop to fold on this flop!”

Obviously, hero's logic makes sense to me. UTG + 1 could be making a play to freeze out the action behind, and he could have been before, which is part of why I wanted to jam in the first place. BB just screams 77 here or aces up though. If that's all he has, he never has hearts here. But we should consider xh holdings as well which is horrible news for hero. UTG + 1 is pretty tough to range here, I still feel most of his holdings are aces. This is still a good price if hero is live, but the range is obviously stronger than last time hero acted on this flop.

I am guessing hero went all the way here. I think the decision is probably close. But hero only has to be good/get there 29% of the time to profit by calling here.

 

[Frogzilla]

Equity against the range is probably pretty close to the odds we’re getting. Neither calling nor folding would be the worst decision hero makes this session. I like a good gambol so I call.

 

[Legend5555]

I'm still on preflop. A $5 open it pretty big. And a 3bet here would need to be like $20 realistically. At that sizing we are starting to lose are positional advantage a bit because the SPR isn't going to be huge. Plus, it's a EP open, so the chance that we just take it down right now is diminished. Our hand plays well post, but I don't think we are quite deep enough to keep in our opponents less premium opening hands. So I prefer just a call.

If the opener had been in MP or LJ, and HJ and CO called, then a 3bet from the button with this hand makes more sense than the configuration we are currently in.

 

[Legend5555]

On flop, I think it's just a fold. We got close to the best drawing flop for us. But it's not to the nuts either way and we were 6 ways getting there. Now the BB just leads into the field. I'm having trouble imagining the hand that does that that isn't willing to get it all in. I don't think we have any fold equity. Us calling doesn't close the action and can put is in a spot where we feel compelled to call it off multiway where we could be crushed every which way.

Cry and fold.

 

[Legend5555]

As played on flop, close eyes and call and hope you aren't dominated on your draw against UTG+1. Best case scenario you are up against set over set. Worst case someone has AXhh. This would have been much "safer" had the A been a heart and the 7 been a different suit.

Though I wouldn't fault a fold here either. It's close.

 

[kmccormick100]

So, did he get it in?

 

[CraigT78]

In this spot - against Dragon or Frogzilla I call, I taunt sicko and call and fold to the rest.

 

[Rhodeman77]

Results:

Hero snap calls the all-ins.

Turn is the 6h River is a blank.

Hero’s flush is good for the whole pot.

Luckily for him both the BB and UTG+1 had the same hand AJ! Though BB did have the Ah for the flush redraw going into the river.

Hero’s no fear attitude worked out for him this time but he is down a lot (a few $k at least) in about a month of playing on WC. So don’t look to emulate his style to quickly!

And if anyone cares I wasUTG +1 in this hand. The only part of my play I question is if I should have raised to $60 on the flop instead of $45? The problem with that sizing is it may not have opened the action back up to me if BB shoved. It would have been very close. So maybe $50 or 55? Either way Hero was never folding even if I shoved all-in on the flop initially.