50c/$1 hold’em on Windy Crest

Rhodeman77

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For this hand we are going to play along with the Villain as I think he has the more interesting decisions to make. I am in the hand though.

We are 8 handed when this hand happens. It is less than an hour into the game being up.

Playing 50c/$1 online on WC. UTG+1 ($220 stack) opens to $5.

There are 2 calls when it get Hero ($200 stack) in the CU who looks down at :8h::9h:.

What is our action? Call, fold, raise? If raising how much?

Hero and UTG+1 have a lot of history from playing the same home games and other online games also texting hand histories and discussing hands.

Image for UTG+1 is a solid TAG that will get frisky with some trash hands cheaply in position. Early position raises usually mean a decent hand, but not just monsters by any means.

Hero image is pretty Laggy. Not playing complete trash but wants to see flops with a wide range of hands for sure.

Hero and UTG+1 cover the table of the players left to act. Most have a about $100 or so and no particular table reads, mostly average loose passive players, no super lags.
 

ChaosRock

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I think I like a raise a little better, maybe to $25ish trying to buy position.
 

JMC9389

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Raise to $15ish and hope you don't get 4 betted.
 

DrStrange

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89s plays well multiway and with a high SPR. If hero is three-betting, it should be with the understanding the hand will be a small SPR hand < SPR less than four >. This means the sticky guy with top pair is not making a mistake by being sticky / playing for stacks vs a LAGish Hero. This being an on-going game with many hours of table time with the villains, Hero will find some benefit from mixing up his play. Maybe enough to compensate for the low SPR.

I think the natural play is flat the $5 raise and see a flop. Even then the SPR is pretty tight. The fancy play is to raise, create a large pot and presumably bluff a high fraction of the time post flop. The idea being the only way Hero can win with nine high is to bet and then bet some more.

I choose call the $5 as best. Three betting is less desirable with Hero's table image, it would be better coming from a TAG style player. I wouldn't choose to fold without some clue the hand was going to blow up preflop.

DrStrange
 

JustinInMN

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There are 2 calls when it get Hero ($200 stack) in the CU who looks down at :8h::9h:.

What is our action? Call, fold, raise? If raising how much?

I can Polk this one easily. I agree with @DrStrange the flat seems like the normal play here after the two other flatters. It could be an interesting spot to go for a 3-bet squeeze since neither middle limper is likely to have extreme strength and the description that the opener is loose, but I think I would want more history than provided to really advocate for that play. I really could also see justifying a fold here if there are aggressors left to act. The last thing you want as hero is to call the 5x raise here and then get-pot stuck into calling off another 15-20 if someone behind is going to squeeze.

But I think my default play would be to flat as described.
 

Eriks

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Maybe I’m nitty but 8-handed with an early position open and two flats I’m not 3-betting often or at all. I’d call and play multiway with a good implied odds hand or if the blinds are squeeze happy I’d just fold.
 

kmccormick100

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I think 200bb deep effective, I'm inclined to 3b this in position. 89s is going to flop a good bit of equity heads-up, but have a lot of reverse implied odds against higher flush draws and connectors like T9 and JT in a large multi-way pot. I especially don't want to get squeezed by one of the 3 players left to act behind me, which has been pretty common on the WCPR streets in my experience. The SB is going to be very incentivized to squeeze with $20-25 in dead money when action gets to them. I'm probably making it $20-25 to go here 80% of the time and flatting then other 20%.
 

ChaosRock

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I think 200bb deep effective, I'm inclined to 3b this in position. 89s is going to flop a good bit of equity heads-up, but have a lot of reverse implied odds against higher flush draws and connectors like T9 and JT in a large multi-way pot. I especially don't want to get squeezed by one of the 3 players left to act behind me, which has been pretty common on the WCPR streets in my experience. The SB is going to be very incentivized to squeeze with $20-25 in dead money when action gets to them. I'm probably making it $20-25 to go here 80% of the time and flatting then other 20%.

My exact thoughts.
 

Rhodeman77

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So Hero decides to call looking to see a cheap flop multi-way if possible.

Button calls the $5 as does the BB.

So we head to a flop 6 ways with pretty much $30 in the pot

Time for things to get interesting!

Flop comes out::ac::jh::7h:

The BB ($100~ to start the hand) leads out for $15.

UTG+1 raises to $45. The next two players fold and action is on Hero.

What do we do? Call, raise, or fold? If raising, how much?
 

JustinInMN

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1596490935500.png


https://images.app.goo.gl/kc96o7UH8frne5e88
 

kmccormick100

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These are the spots I'm trying to avoid 6 ways with a 9hi flush draw. A ten is the best card for us, but even that doesn't give us the nuts, only the :th:. I think facing the BB donk range of probably AT+, two pair, and better flush draws betting into 5 people, the UTG1 range of AK+, AJ, AA, JJ and Axhh and higher flush draws raising the open, I'm folding at this point.

Had we gotten it heads up or 3 ways by 3betting, I'm much more likely to call or even raise on this flop with a lot of equity and more clean outs.
 

JustinInMN

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Seriously pot is laying 2:1, folding a straight-flush draw is not an option, hero will always be within this except for :ah:-xh hands, and will be a favorite against one-pair hands without the :ah:. Higher flush draw out might suck, and I would prefer to see :Ah: on the board to rule out most higher flush draws, but hey, it's not perfect.

I favor the jam because hero won't minds calls except from the strongest of ranges, but also will pick up fold equity. from hands that might hold up as much as 40% of the time otherwise.

Calling may be the second best choice, but it's a distant second to me.
 

kmccormick100

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Seriously pot is laying 2:1, folding a straight-flush draw is not an option, hero will always be within this, and will be a favorite against one-pair hands. Higher flush draw out might suck, and I would prefer to see :Ah: on the board to rule out most higher flush draws, but hey, it's not perfect.

I favor the jam because hero won't minds calls except from the strongest of ranges, but also will pick up fold equity. from hands that might hold up as much as 40% of the time otherwise.

Calling may be the second best choice, but it's a distant second to me.
You're always welcome in my home games too ;), I love some good action.
 

ChaosRock

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What Kyle said, again.

Yes, we're given 2:1 which is NOT enough to cover our odds explicitly, even if we're good on the hearts, which we might not be a certain percentage of the time. Even the gutter might not be good if we hit it. I lean towards folding. Even if we flat, BB might shove opening up the betting again. Don't love this position.

BB leads on 5 other players and UTG raises into 4 more + donker. Not sure how much fold equity we have if we shove.

Do not like it.

Fold. It's only $5.
 

Rhodeman77

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Seriously pot is laying 2:1, folding a straight-flush draw is not an option, hero will always be within this except for :ah:-xh hands, and will be a favorite against one-pair hands without the :ah:. Higher flush draw out might suck, and I would prefer to see :Ah: on the board to rule out most higher flush draws, but hey, it's not perfect.

I favor the jam because hero won't minds calls except from the strongest of ranges, but also will pick up fold equity. from hands that might hold up as much as 40% of the time otherwise.

Calling may be the second best choice, but it's a distant second to me.

Are you not worried about the reverse implied odds of facing a better flush draw or worse, the Ace high flush draw? How deep do you need to be before this becomes a real concern for you?
 

Hornet

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I have to agree with Kyle on this one. The hand looks better than it is with 6 players seeing the flop. I probably fold and kick myself that I didn’t three bet pre. If I had, I would be willing to go with it on the flop.
 

JMC9389

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Fold.

BB is representing a (likely higher) hearts draw and UTG is repping either rockets, Jack's, or another high pocket pair. I don't like my odds here. Especially with only committing $5 to the pot so far, I'd move on from this one.
 

jja412

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I'll nit it up with most of the others here. With the preceding action, and with so many seeing the flop, we are pretty much dead to 1 card. I've lost $5, but don't plan to lose more here. Fold
 

JustinInMN

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I think what Kyle is laying out is about the worst case scenario. There are also other scenarios in which both villains just have ax, and maybe sometimes one of them has :ah:. The :jh: on board removes some bigger heart combos, as does hero holding the :9h: and :8h:, are people calling raises with :th::7h: in this game?

Yes I concede there are really bad possibilities too, but we are missing out on the chance to win the pot now or play a big pot with big equity in plenty of spots nowhere near the worst case scenario if hero is looking for the exit here.
 

Rhodeman77

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are people calling raises with :th::7h: in this game?
:whistle: :whistling:

I would on the button, but I would also not have a problem folding it facing a bet and a raise.
If it was bet call, I’d feel a more comfortable with my draw being live but still not safe. With small flush draws I try to get heads up if possible to clean up my outs.

There are a lot of flush draws that could have Hero crushed. AXhh. Nobody folds a suited Ace for $5. So every AXhh combo is live IMO. Then there are K10hh, KQhh, Q10hh as well.
 

ChaosRock

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I think what Kyle is laying out is about the worst case scenario. There are also other scenarios in which both villains just have ax, and maybe sometimes one of them has :ah:. The :jh: on board removes some bigger heart combos, as does hero holding the :9h: and :8h:, are people calling raises with :th::7h: in this game?

Yes I concede there are really bad possibilities too, but we are missing out on the chance to win the pot now or play a big pot with big equity in plenty of spots nowhere near the worst case scenario if hero is looking for the exit here.

I don't think Kyle is saying someone definitely has us beat on the hearts but that there is some possibility we are. And I absolutely think someone is calling with T7h for $5 closing the action or even on the SB if BB is weak. Very weird for someone leading into 5 other players without either with a big made hand or a draw to price cheaply. BB shouldn't have a big A otherwise it is a perfect spot for a big squeeze pre. UTG raising there (albeit on the smaller side) shows strength as well as he still has four players plus the raiser to act. Not to mention there are still two players behind us plus the donk bettor.

And I will put this another way, if you aren't going with it on this flop, folding preflop becomes the best option with this hand by far.

I get your point. We flopped a 12-out draw. Hard to think of a better flop other than OES+FD. The problem is not what we flopped, it is the action on the table, imo. If we stack UTG we won't get the odds we need. If we stack BB and UTG, pot odds get better but the chance of our outs being dead are greater.

Don't get me wrong, i don't hate a fold pre flop. In fact, I like it better than the call. I was SHOCKED no one in position or the blinds squeezed. In the games I play, that would have happened the great majority of the time. Wanna play the pot, raise.
 
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DrStrange

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Hero needs to lean hard on his villain reads. What are we to make of UTG+1's raise? The half pot donk bet from the blinds doesn't alarm me that much because the range of hands that player can hold is wide. But UTG+1's raise following his early position raise preflop has me very concerned.

:ah::kh: / :ah::qh: / :ah::th: plus sets have Hero curb stomped. :kh::qh: is also a problem. Hero has a shot vs top two pair, though he faces a 10% <or worse vs :ah::jx:> redraw. The critical question for me is how much more does villain have in his range? Does he go to war with AK + one heart? How about AQ + a heart? Does he worry about the value added with a runner runner heart draw?

I see nine disaster hands in the range. Ten more problem hands. None of these are likely to fold to aggression. How many more hands can we add to the range where Hero benefits from his full assortment of draws? And can Hero expect villain to fold a hand like :ah::kx:?

Hero smashes the flop hard. Then UTG+1 says "me too, want to play for stacks?" Best case I see for hero is a coin flip plus some faint fold equity.

My answer is no thank you sir. Hero's monster combo draw has shriveled up.

I vote puke, fold. And comfort myself that it was only $5 invested.

DrStrange
 

JustinInMN

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I get your point. We flopped a 12-out draw. Hard to think of a better flop other than OES+FD. The problem is not what we flopped, it is the action on the table, imo.

Hero is in late position in a 5 handed pot. A bet and a raise before the action gets to hero is a pretty common occurrence. If that's a going to make hero blush when we flop near our best, then just fold pre. You are basically only calling for flopped hands, no price justifies that.

I think middle raises here are lighter than a lot of people are saying here. There is huge motivation to isolate with everything reasonable band a lot of dead money in this pot. I suppose that's why my thinking informs fo for the jam here.
 

Perthmike

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I don't think Kyle is saying someone definitely has us beat on the hearts but that there is some possibility we are. And I absolutely think someone is calling with T7h for $5 closing the action or even on the SB if BB is weak. Very weird for someone leading into 5 other players without either with a big made hand or a draw to price cheaply. BB shouldn't have a big A otherwise it is a perfect spot for a big squeeze pre. UTG raising there (albeit on the smaller side) shows strength as well as he still has four players plus the raiser to act. Not to mention there are still two players behind us plus the donk bettor.



I get your point. We flopped a 12-out draw. Hard to think of a better flop other than OES+FD. The problem is not what we flopped, it is the action on the table, imo. If we stack UTG we won't get the odds we need. If we stack BB and UTG, pot odds get better but the chance of our outs being dead are greater.

Don't get me wrong, i don't hate a fold pre flop. In fact, I like it better than the call. I was SHOCKED no one in position or the blinds squeezed. In the games I play, that would have happened the great majority of the time. Wanna play the pot, raise.
Remind me to avoid you at any table I might meet you at lol
 
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