Tourney Dealing and thinking that you saw an exposed card as you dealt it. (2 Viewers)

[Mesnik44]

Weird situation last night from our tournament.

I was dealing, and I thought I exposed a card, that only I saw. I thought I saw a 9c. No one else at the table saw it. I said to the table that I thought I saw a card, BUT, I was wrong, it was 7d.

What is the ruling here? There was no malicious intent, I thought I saw something and I was wrong.

 

[Beakertwang]

You were still in the hand? If it was another player's hole card, you should announce it, and give that player another card. I believe the exposed card becomes the flop burn card.

 

[abby99]

You were still in the hand? If it was another player's hole card, you should announce it, and give that player another card. I believe the exposed card becomes the flop burn card.

Correct. Note that the exposed card is replaced at the end of the deal.

It's a misdeal if two cards are exposed or if the exposed card is one of the first two cards dealt.

 

[Mesnik44]

I am familiar with the exposed card rule. I should have explained myself better.

I am dealing, I am in the hand. I was the only person to see the exposed card. I know the rule is to show everyone the card, and give that player a new card at the end of the deal.

What I need clarity on, is that I was the only person to see the card, but it was neither the color nor the value of the card. I was wrong, and I think I forced that player to give up his card, which would have made his pocket pair. Could that player just say "No, you are wrong" and we continue?

Thank you all in advance.

 

[Josh Kifer]

I'd state I think I saw a card. Announce it, person on other side will either say it is or isn't. If it's not, no biggie. If it is, he can keep the card if he wants, get a new card, or call a misdeal.

I mean, it's just how we do it. But we are a group of friends.

 

[BGinGA]

Yeah, this is always a tricky/sticky situation. If you did indeed flash the card (even if only you saw it), it should be removed from play and re-dealt (and become the burn card). But if you merely *think* you saw the card, it can cause unnecessary hardship if you are incorrect.

It's certainly not fair to say nothing (giving you a potential advantage), but it's also not fair to the affected player to make him expose the card to the table if you are wrong. It's also not fair to announce to the players what you *think* it is, because if wrong, they'll also know that the player *doesn't* have that card in his hand. Either way, everybody else has info regarding that player's hand that they should not have, due to no error by that player.

The best approach is to send a face-down note to the player with the card rank/suit in question. If he confirms that it is correct, he surrenders the card as an exposed card (and is re-dealt a new replacement in accordance to procedures). However, if he denies that it is his card, then you as the dealer have a dilemma -- you can either announce the non-card to everybody (unfair to the player in question), or keep the knowledge to yourself and remove yourself from the hand (unfair to you, but hey, it was your mistake). I favor the latter approach.

This goes for other players who occasionally think they see flashed cards, but are wrong. They can send a private message to the player, but if wrong, are disqualified from playing that hand. It's the fairest way to deal with the issue.

 

[Mesnik44]

Yeah, this is always a tricky/sticky situation. If you did indeed flash the card (even if only you saw it), it should be removed from play and re-dealt (and become the burn card). But if you merely *think* you saw the card, it can cause unnecessary hardship if you are incorrect.

It's certainly not fair to say nothing (giving you a potential advantage), but it's also not fair to the affected player to make him expose the card to the table if you are wrong. It's also not fair to announce to the players what you *think* it is, because if wrong, they'll also know that the player *doesn't* have that card in his hand. Either way, everybody else has info regarding that player's hand that they should not have, due to no error by that player.

The best approach is to send a face-down note to the player with the card rank/suit in question. If he confirms that it is correct, he surrenders the card as an exposed card (and is re-dealt a new replacement in accordance to procedures). However, if he denies that it is his card, then you as the dealer have a dilemma -- you can either announce the non-card to everybody (unfair to the player in question), or keep the knowledge to yourself and remove yourself from the hand (unfair to you, but hey, it was your mistake). I favor the latter approach.

This goes for other players who occasionally think they see flashed cards, but are wrong. They can send a private message to the player, but if wrong, are disqualified from playing that hand. It's the fairest way to deal with the issue.

Thanks BGinGA, I like that idea. Yes it may be unfair to me, but removing myself from the hand IMHO would be the best approach, as I am not in a blind situation, so it costs me nothing.

 

[trigs]

I don't see the harm of announcing what card you thought it was and having player show the table and giving him another card even if you're wrong. It happens and it's not your fault. You were just being honest and trying to be fair. Yes it sucks if that player wanted that card but it's not intentional on your part.

Now if you are constantly calling cards you think you saw and getting them wrong all the time you're probably not getting invited back to my game.

 

[Frogzilla]

Just say quickly “that card might have flashed...let me get you a new one.” Do it before they’ve looked. Don’t have to declare the card or anything like that. 100% fair to everyone

 

[Frogzilla]

I forced that player to give up his card, which would have made his pocket pair. Could that player just say "No, you are wrong" and we continue?

No, he doesn’t get to keep that card ever. He doesn’t get an optional redraw (massive advantage) because someone thought his card may have flashed.

As a related aside, my biggest pet peeve in home games is sometime when the card gets flipped up during the deal, the player gets the option of keeping it

 

[trigs]

As a related aside, my biggest pet peeve in home games is sometime when the card gets flipped up during the deal, the player gets the option of keeping it

Just curious why this bothers you so much. Isn't it a huge disadvantage for the player playing with one card basically face up? If someone wants to show me a card I'm not going to stop them.

 

[Frogzilla]

Just curious why this bothers you so much. Isn't it a huge disadvantage for the player playing with one card basically face up? If someone wants to show me a card I'm not going to stop them.

The problem is they get to choose.

Imagine this game heads up. Every hand, you get two cards and I get only one. Then the top card of the deck is flipped up. I can either choose to play that one, or take the next card in the deck. Don’t I have an advantage?

 

[BGinGA]

No, he doesn’t get to keep that card ever.

Not sure I agree with this reasoning, if the card wasn't *actually* exposed. Too many ways to angle shoot, if for no other reason than to merely tilt the player.

But I'm with you on the 'choice' argument. A true exposed card (during the deal) is always removed from play, no exceptions, no choice.

 

[BGinGA]

Just say quickly “that card might have flashed...let me get you a new one.” Do it before they’ve looked. Don’t have to declare the card or anything like that. 100% fair to everyone

Not fair to the player to alter his hand for no good reason.

 

[trigs]

The problem is they get to choose.

Imagine this game heads up. Every hand, you get two cards and I get only one. Then the top card of the deck is flipped up. I can either choose to play that one, or take the next card in the deck. Don’t I have an advantage?

That's a little extreme of an example, don't you think?

 

[Frogzilla]

That's a little extreme of an example, don't you think?

It’s the same thing as letting them choose a new card off the top of the deck or to keep the one that was exposed

 

[trigs]

It’s the same thing as letting them choose a new card off the top of the deck or to keep the one that was exposed

I'd imagine that a one time dealer error with an exposed card is different than a heads up match where I can see the top card every time and then decide to choose the next top card. I guess I understand your point though.

 

[Gobbs]

It does not matter who, if anybody, sees the card or even sees it correctly. A flashed card (by the dealer) is an exposed card. Replace it. It’s that simple.

 

[ekricket]

Lol at sending secret notes around the table. I’m not sure I ever saw that in Roberts or the TD guidelines. Sounds like an angle shoot to me, passing secret info around.

I can see it now. “Floor! Can you bring me a piece of paper and pen so I can send a note to player 5?”

 

[pltrgyst]

.... or keep the knowledge to yourself and remove yourself from the hand (unfair to you, but hey, it was your mistake). I favor the latter approach.

I'm in this camp.

The only shortcoming is that you'd better be 100% sure that no other player could have seen the card and failed to admit it.

 

[JustinInMN]

Lol at sending secret notes around the table. I’m not sure I ever saw that in Roberts or the TD guidelines. Sounds like an angle shoot to me, passing secret info around.

I agree, opening up the game to note passing is a bad idea. I don't see anything wrong with naming the rank and suit aloud. If the player recieved that card, it's replaced, if not, no harm. Either way everyone is on the same plane of info.

 

[Gobbs]

I don't see anything wrong with naming the rank and suit aloud. If the player recieved that card, it's replaced, if not, no harm. Either way everyone is on the same plane of info.

There is no need for this or anything else above. By rule, a card that is flashed by a dealer is treated as an exposed card. Therefore, it doesn’t matter if somebody saw it correctly or not. It was flashed. Therefore, it’s exposed and replaced in the example given. There is no “Did anybody see that?” or “I’m not sure if I saw it right or not.” It was flashed. Therefore, it needs to be replaced.

 

[BGinGA]

I don't see anything wrong with naming the rank and suit aloud. If the player recieved that card, it's replaced, if not, no harm. Either way everyone is on the same plane of info.

Fine by me, so long as that player gets to ask every other player at the table if their hand contains a specific card, one by one. Tit for tat, and only then is the information field really level.

Otherwise he gets screwed, and worse, due to absolutely no fault of his own. Everybody else has info on what he *doesn't* have, and he has no such knowledge of anyone else's hands.

Rules like that tend to encourage noncompliance. I, for one, would refuse to answer if by doing so puts me at a disadvantage.

 

[DoubleEagle]

There is no need for this or anything else above. By rule, a card that is flashed by a dealer is treated as an exposed card. Therefore, it doesn’t matter if somebody saw it correctly or not. It was flashed. Therefore, it’s exposed and replaced in the example given. There is no “Did anybody see that?” or “I’m not sure if I saw it right or not.” It was flashed. Therefore, it needs to be replaced.

^^ That.

 

[JustinInMN]

Fine by me, so long as that player gets to ask every other player at the table if their hand contains a specific card, one by one. Tit for tat, and only then is the information field really level.

But if the answer is "no" then no real harm has been done to the hand past the degree of a standard exposed card. If the answer is "yes" then it's treated as an exposed card.

If you pass the note, then as the note passer, you get information that everyone else in the game doesn't have if he responds "no."

Rules like that tend to encourage noncompliance. I, for one, would refuse to answer if by doing so puts me at a disadvantage.

However, if he denies that it is his card, then you as the dealer have a dilemma -- you can either announce the non-card to everybody (unfair to the player in question), or keep the knowledge to yourself and remove yourself from the hand (unfair to you, but hey, it was your mistake). I favor the latter approach.

If you pass the note, then as the note passer, you get information that everyone else in the game doesn't have if he responds "no." Doesn't your suggestion that the note passer risks having to kill his hand also encourage non-compliance? It is of no advantage to call out a possible flash if you would risk your own hand.

My take is flash cards happen, sometimes a replacement is advantageous, sometimes it isn't. There is no good way to ensure it balances out without making it worse. The less guesswork in this rule the better.

 

[Mesnik44]

Another suggestion from one of my players was, in a self dealt game, the dealer sits out, and just deals. I kind of like that idea, because, at that point you can't angle (malicious intent) nor will a mistake (non-malicious intent) have any affect on that orbit from the dealer standpoint.

 

[Gobbs]

Another suggestion from one of my players was, in a self dealt game, the dealer sits out, and just deals. I kind of like that idea, because, at that point you can't angle (malicious intent) nor will a mistake (non-malicious intent) have any affect on that orbit from the dealer standpoint.

I don’t understand what this will accomplish at all. The only thing that changes is the dealer doesn’t play. It doesn’t prevent anything.

 

[smsguy927]

I am a full time dealer. If I thought I saw an exposed card but wasn't 100% sure what it was, I would not do anything nor say anything. The TDA discussed this in their 2015, 2017, and 2019 summits. If a player claims that a card was flashed during the initial deal or during the middle of a hand, the preferred ruling is to announce to the table that someone saw an X of suit Y and continue with the hand.

 

[pltrgyst]

....the preferred ruling is to announce to the table that someone saw an X of suit Y and continue with the hand.

But that still leaves that player with knowledge of where that card went, which is an advantage over the rest of the table.

 

[BGinGA]

Just play cash. Oh wait...