Tourney 25-30 Player fun based charity tournament - advise appreciated (1 Viewer)

[Aces Up]

I have been asked to run a 25-30 person charity event tournament that would feature mostly inexperienced players. The hosts want the focus to be on giving their players a good time, but we also don't want to be playing 10 hours later. lol

Someone suggested that we go with 3 tables and play for a preset number of levels (perhaps lasting ~3 hours). Then take the top two stacks from each table (or top 3 of we break down to 2 tables), and move them to the final table and let them battle it out. The eliminated players chips would be removed from play. We could also take the top six players overall; they would likely be the same players.

Thinking perhaps a 1k (or maybe 1.5k) starting stack. Since only six players are going to the final table we could go long on starting stacks and perhaps boost the levels when the final table starts. Rebuys would be allowed, but the hosts don't want players to have to rebuy because we gave them small starting stacks. To be honest, they'd be fine it if no players rebought and all players were still playing when it was time to move to the final table.

Perhaps a structure along these lines, maybe 20-minute levels?
5/10
10/20
15/30
25/50
15 minute break: Color up to remove 5s
50/100
100/200
150/300
250/500
30 minute break: Color up to remove 25s and move to the final table
The food will be ready at this point so this will also give the players a chance to eat.
400/800
600/1200
800/1600
1k/2k
…

I played a tournament like this once and was happy with the experience, ending up 3rd out of 18. Was a while ago so I don't remember the starting stacks or structure.

Keeping in mind this is a 'for fun' tournament rather than a serious one, do you think this would fly?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions you may have.
Lou

 

[BGinGA]

A few questions.....

• How long do you want it to last start-to-finish?
• What chip set and breakdown do you have available?
• What is your proposed entry fee, and do you plan to offer re-buys or add-ons to generate additional charity donations?

Not a big fan of your event proposal and pretty much detest the blind structure you listed, but would be glad to assist in making it better.

 

[CraigT78]

I run a successful charity tournament once a year. Listen to EVERYTHING @BGinGA has to say - he has really helped shape my event into a great time - from the poker aspect.

What I have learned is that there is more to the event than just poker. Sure, it is the highlight, but the event must feel like it is worth the entry cost. I have BBQ catered for dinner. Beer, Wine, and alternate beverages - important as those with a slight buzz are willing to donate more. I have also found that a raffle can be a huge addition to the fundraising. I raffled off several prizes, most donated, and a few I put together. The grand prize was "Poker Night in a Box". I got a 600 chipset that was light years above dice chips (but still well below PCF standards), a rollout table topper, a setup of quality cards, and included some printed out blind structures. Last years raffle take was over $2k.

Another idea is to GET SPONSORS. I offered sponsorships for the event for $300. It included a free entry to the event and I displayed the sponsors advertising at the event. Last year was the first year i did this, and we raised nearly $3k before the event even started.

Good luck - if you are anything like me - this should be real fun to host. It is my favorite tournament of the year.

 

[JustinInMN]

Someone suggested that we go with 3 tables and play for a preset number of levels (perhaps lasting ~3 hours). Then take the top two stacks from each table (or top 3 of we break down to 2 tables), and move them to the final table and let them battle it out. The eliminated players chips would be removed from play.

I wouldn't say this is a flaw, but there is a major issue with this type of format. Anyone that is below an advancing place will figure out they need to be all in on the last hand. Meaning you will need to consider the possibility of accounting for 6 or 7 side pots.

That alone would dissuade me from this format.

Personally, I would just design a standard tournament to fit your chip set and time frame. (Which is why BG asked you these questions.)

You can get a decent amount of play in 3-4 hours, even if you do a one hour rebuy period.

But to help, we need to know what you are working with.

 

[Aces Up]

Oh I know @BGinGA. Been reading his posts for years' he's like a God around here.

The event is part of a larger party. Food and drinks will be available, and they have at least one sponsor lined up to provide items for a raffle. They had a band lined up but they backed out, so we've got more room for more than just the usual one poker table. The cover is $20, drinks for additional purchase.

What do you think about concept of players playing for 3 hours, then being eliminated by their chip stacks as only the largest stacks advance? Thinking that will run another 2 hours or so. Agree that their could be some wild play at the end of the first part, which is my concern as well. Rebuys are ok in my book, it's the host that wants their friends to feel they are getting value without having to keep digging into their wallets. They are thinking $20 buy-in, I think it should be higher, especially if they want to structure things in way that rebuys are not being pushed.

I have more than enough Dunes Commemorative chips to do whatever we want, or if I really need more I know where to get them.

Imagine you have a blank slate:
- you've got 3 tables and 30 players, and about 5 hours to get a champion.
- Players have a decent enough stack that they aren't rebuying every 15 minutes. Rebuys are ok.
- It doesn't have to be the spilt format I described, that was a suggestion from one of the hosts.
- Enough chips to do whatever you want
- There will be a player/dealer at each table. Already have them lined up.

Feeling a little overwhelmed trying to balance it all. Hoping for suggestions to make it their best event ever.

 

[JustinInMN]

I suppose I can infer from the first post that you are probably looking at a T5 base and probably 4-5 hours.

This probably does mean using a shorter starting stack with a fairly quick blind progression with shorter levels.

But I will take a stab. 20 min levels T800 starting stack (40BB)

10-20, 15-30, 20-40, 30-60*
50-100, 75-150, 100-200, 150-300**,
200-400, 300-600, 400-800, 600-1200***, 1000-2000, 1500-3000

*4 levels, 40 min break, End late/re-entry and color up T5, food time here (2h00 elapsed)

**4 more levels, 10 min break, color up T25, 10 min break (3h30 elapsed)

***4 more levels, Expected end of tournament (4h50-5h10 elapsed)

Figure do the food break at the close of the entry period. That stretches out your time to process late entries and makes sure every has the option to play to food time. Players will start leaving after that as they are eliminated.

I know generally players here won't like some of the jumps and the short starting stack, but I think it's the best way if we are staying in a 5 hour window.

 

[DoubleEagle]

I would strongly suggest you reconsider your structure and listen to some of us here that have run successful charity events in the past. Inexperienced players or not, everyone deserves to play in an event with a sound structure.

I have run many successful events, the last one was last fall with 33 players. Take a look. Some good info there. @CraigT78 does it every year. Learn from the experience of others. No one can really help until you answer the basic questions from @BGinGA.

Good luck with your event.

 

[JustinInMN]

What do you think about concept of players playing for 3 hours, then being eliminated by their chip stacks as only the largest stacks advance?

The problem with any format of this sort is what I said above. Everyone outside of an advancing position has nothing to lose by going all in, which means you are guaranteeing a pot with 6-7 side pots.

Now if you really like the advancement idea. I would suggest designing a 60-90 minutes tournament where four single table winners advance to the final table.

Otherwise I have heard of this thing called a "guillotine" tournament where the low stack at the end of each level is eliminated. This would at least reduce the "nothing to lose all in" hands to the bottom couple of players.

But neither of these formats lends itself well to re entries, imo.

 

[Mr Winberg]

I would recommend a standard tournament. If you don't want the hassle of balancing tables, perhaps a shootout could work, but that comes with its own problems.

Five hours including breaks is about 4 1/2 hours effective time. If you start with T2000 (because your base is T5, correct?) there will be 60,000 in play. Using the "20 BBs left rule" the tournament should end no later than at level 1500/3000 (but this rule is not fool proof, and beware that tournaments with lots of inexperienced players tend to drag out since the speed is lower). Perhaps something like this? (Small blind always half, I'm lazy)

BB
20
30
40
60
80
--- break, remove T5
100
150
200
300
--- break, remove T25
400
600
800
1200
1600
--- break, remove T100
2000
3000
--- should have ended, if not, force them out with large increases
5000
10000
20000
...

16 levels to 3k, 270 minutes, that means almost 17 minutes per level, but make it 16 to be safe(r).

A better one is probably on its way from BG, though

 

[Gobbs]

Definitely wouldn’t go with anything that encourages a shovefest at the end (or at a certain portion of the tournament). Even in a charity game with inexperienced players, they are going to realize there is a lot of luck involved with the type of format suggested in the OP. I hate anything that promotes the luck of poker vs. the skill in poker. I have a hard enough time convincing some of my less knowledgeable friends that poker is a game of skill. I wouldn’t want people walking away from the charity event not understanding that skill plays a role in winning.

 

[Aces Up]

The more I think (and read) about it the more the "Top X" idea, the more I think that it isn't a good one. Too much opportunity for shennanigans, especially at the end. I'm taking that idea off the table (pardon the pun).

Here's the final parameters I'm working with:

24 players max. Just found out the hosts table seats 8 not 10 and they want to use it.
Rebuys allowed.
Target length is 5 hours, including breaks. Food is a taco bar, so 30 minutes should suffice.
We are not bound to a T5 base, I just seems easier from a players perspective. I have enough chips to do a T25 base or T100 base.

Thanks for the "20BB Rule" tip, even though it is not guaranteed it gives me a good starting point to use in calcuations.
I'm crunching the numbers JustinInMN and Mr Winberg provided. Interesting that one suggests a 2000 starting stack and the other 800. Seeing how one affects the other is very interesting, as is learning why my initial blinds were not optimal.

@DoubleEagle: that looks like a lot of fun! Would love to do something like that at my home, but I don't have the space. Sorry for your loss.

Have some time tonight to look back through earlier posts as well, I'm sure I'll find a few from BGinGA.

I REALLY appreciate the help, thanks so much!
Lou

 

[JustinInMN]

I'm crunching the numbers JustinInMN and Mr Winberg provided. Interesting that one suggests a 2000 starting stack and the other 800.

The difference is in the level lengths we are suggesting. I am still keeping 20 minute levels while he is suggesting 16.

Starting stack and level length are two "levers" you can manipulate to influence the event length.

I personally prefer the starting stack lever and keeping the levels at least 18 mins in length. But both are valid ways to influence the length of the tournament.

Glad to hear you breaking away from the top finisher idea. About 10-15 years ago my local club did something like this and the chaos I described happened and was messy. Probably why they abandoned the format.

 

[Gobbs]

From a player perspective, go with a T25 base. I find it more flexible.

 

[DoubleEagle]

@DoubleEagle: that looks like a lot of fun! Would love to do something like that at my home, but I don't have the space. Sorry for your loss.

Thank you. I was wanting to draw your attention to these ideas to raise extra cash.

Not only 25% of $100 buy-ins, but we also had a chip draw and auction. Starting stacks were 12,000. We put nine 1,000 chips and one 5,000 chip in a bucket. Players could pull out three chips for $20. All but a couple players did. We did this twice. Also auctioned off a $5,000 chip. Got $70. Bucket draw was way better. 100% of the chip draw and auction went to the charity.

 

[Mr Winberg]

24 players max. Just found out the hosts table seats 8 not 10 and they want to use it.

Apart from having 6 players less, this is (in my humble opinion) good. In my experience, you get more hands per hour with an 8 per table tournament than with 10.

The difference is in the level lengths we are suggesting. I am still keeping 20 minute levels while he is suggesting 16.

Yup. This, and that @JustinInMN has 50 minutes for breaks, I only have 30. BTW, how much break time do you need?

I personally prefer at least 20 minute levels, but my suggested structure wouldn't allow it.

From a player perspective, go with a T25 base.

This. Apart from reading about it in my local chip forum, I also have first hand experience that inexperienced players find a T25 base easier to handle than a T5 base.

 

[Mr Winberg]

BTW, will you be playing or just hosting? Are you familiar with how to balance tables and break up tables? Are you all set with software for the poker clock?

This

The hosts want the focus to be on giving their players a good time

is not only about having a decent blind structure.

 

[JustinInMN]

Yup. This, and that @JustinInMN has 50 minutes for breaks, I only have

Yeah the OP indicated there would be an extended food break at some point. Otherwise I find 8-10 min breaks sufficient.

I also prefer 100+ big blind starting stacks but I don't think the time constraints support that. So I ended up at a 40BB start, which I would deem the bare minimum.

So really I think if we are at 5 hour max overall we are looking at 4h00-4h10 of actual playing time. If we switch to T25 base with starting stack of T6000 and dropped the levels to 18 mins, could do this...

50-100, 75-150, 100-200, 150-300, remove T25, 30 min break (1h42 elapsed)

200-400, 300-600, 400-800, 600-1200, 1000-2000, 1500-3000, remove T100 and T500, 10 min break (3h40 elapsed)

2K-4K, 3K-6K, 4K-8K, 6K-12K* (4h52 elapsed)

*Expected end figuring 36 entries (50% re entry rate.)

 

[Mr Winberg]

Yeah the OP indicated there would be an extended food break at some point.

Next time I might actually read the whole OP

 

[Mr Winberg]

Hmmm... here's a thought. This might be the worst idea ever, and if it is, please only view it as an academic exercise in turning the different levers.

Since people want to have a good time, and will probably want to see a lot of flops without busting, you could still start with deep stacks, have 20 minute levels, but have a really aggressive blind progression (and I mean BG tiltingly aggressive!). 10k starting stacks, 200 BBs, 260 minutes effective playing time (only two breaks, 10+30), and some rebuys factored in to make it around 300k in play:

BB
50
100
200
300
--- remove T25
400
600
1000
1600
2400
--- remove T100 and T500, dinner break?
4k
6k
10k
16k
--- should end here
24k
40k

I feel a bit dirty after typing that structure...

 

[BGinGA]

I have been asked to run a 25-30 person charity event tournament that would feature mostly inexperienced players. The hosts want the focus to be on giving their players a good time, but we also don't want to be playing 10 hours later. The event is part of a larger party. Food and drinks will be available, and they have at least one sponsor lined up to provide items for a raffle. The cover is $20, drinks for additional purchase.

Rebuys would be allowed, but the hosts don't want players to have to rebuy because we gave them small starting stacks. 24 players max. Target length is 5 hours, including breaks. Food is a taco bar, so 30 minutes should suffice.

For charity poker events with relatively inexperienced players, the primary goals are:

• provide money donations to the charity
• provide entertainment value to the participants
• encourage participants to make additional donations
• finish the event in a timely fashion

Aside of the other non-poker options available to raise extra money for the charity (raffles, auctions, cover charges, etc.), it is generally a good idea to offer players the opportunity to purchase extra chips for optional additional donations. This can be in the form of pre-game add-ons, re-buys, or mid-game add-ons (after the re-buy period ends).

Charity poker events are excellent vehicles for re-buy/add-on tournaments, smaller starting stacks, and aggressive blind structures,, as each encourages players to spend extra money which goes to a good cause.

A five-hour event duration is a reasonable goal, and can still be accomplished with reasonable blind level times, starting stack sizes, and somewhat aggressive blinds.

For a 24-player field size (three tables of 8 players), I'd go with the following T25-base structure (easier for inexperienced players to calculate):

• $20 entry donation for T5000 in starting chips (50BB)
• optional $20 for additional T5000 in starting chips (i.e., players can optionally start with 100BB for $40)
• unlimited $20 re-buys (T5000) for the first hour (must be busted to re-buy, double re-buys to T10K allowed)
• optional $10 add-on (T5000) after re-buy period ends

I recommend that 50% of each entry/re-buy purchase go towards the charity and 50% towards the prize pool, with 100% of the add-on purchases going to charity. Award cash prizes to the top 17% of the field as follows:

• 1st = 40% of prize pool
• 2nd = 30% of prize pool
• 3rd = 20% of prize pool
• 4th = 10% of prize pool

Blind structure below uses 20-minute levels ( 59% average increase, ranging from 50%-67%)

lvl sb bb
L1 50 100
L2 75 150
L3 125 250
20-minute break, remove T25 chips
end of re-buys, optional add-on purchases
L4 200 400
L5 300 600
L6 500 1000
10-minute break
L7 800 1600
L8 1200 2400
L9 2000 4000
30-minute dinner break, remove T100/T500 chips
L10 3000 6000
L11 5000 10000
L12 8000 16000 ** EOT
L13 12000 24000
L14 20000 40000

Use T1000 chips to color-up the T25 chips, and T5000 chips to color-up the T100/T500 chips. T5000 starting stacks are 8/8/4/2, with all T5000 re-buys/add-ons at 5 x T1000. Optional add-on at break can be a single T5000 chip.

Plenty of chips to play with (especially if starting with T10K), and the blinds are aggressive enough to systematically knock out players without doubling at any point.

Tournament should rarely go past L12, which is 4:00 hours of actual play plus 60 minutes in total breaks (including the dinner break after 3 hours). Extremely unlikely to last past L14, even with lots of re-buys/add-ons.

Might want to schedule the dinner break after just two hours, however -- it gives people a chance to eat without having to wait around after being eliminated.

 

[allforcharity]

Consider running a blackjack table for the casual gamblers who aren't into poker. You could do it as a separate tournament with its own prize. Roulette is even more fun, but equipment outlay is big, so not recommended first.