SendThatStack
3 of a Kind
What’s your opinion on when to allow rebuys? Mainly whether you allow them at/below starting stack, or only when busted or something in between?
Tourney Opinions on rebuy options (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter SendThatStack
- Start date
wonderpuddle
Full House
I've run two different kinds of rebuys, both of which work:
1) standard T10,000 stack. Can only rebuy if you bust.
2) dollar for dollar tourney (i.e., buy in for $50 gets you $50 in chips). We announce the final three hands of the rebuy period. If you have less than a full stack at the end of those three hands, you can buy enough chips to get back to a starting stack (i.e., if you have $42 you can buy $8 more in chips).
I like both. The second version seems to do a better job at building the pot, as people who maybe wouldn't splurge for a full rebuy often will throw a few more bucks into the pot to get back to a starting stack.
1) standard T10,000 stack. Can only rebuy if you bust.
2) dollar for dollar tourney (i.e., buy in for $50 gets you $50 in chips). We announce the final three hands of the rebuy period. If you have less than a full stack at the end of those three hands, you can buy enough chips to get back to a starting stack (i.e., if you have $42 you can buy $8 more in chips).
I like both. The second version seems to do a better job at building the pot, as people who maybe wouldn't splurge for a full rebuy often will throw a few more bucks into the pot to get back to a starting stack.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
Personally, I like allowing rebuys until 60-90 minutes of play, depending on your structure. There should always be a hard cutoff when rebuys are not allowed and the tournament becomes a true freezeout. At the cutoff you can permit player to surrender a stack if they wish to buy a full stack.
I think it's okay to limit rebuys to one or two per player if your set requires it or if you don't want someone to fire 5 buy ins or something.
I think it's okay to limit rebuys to one or two per player if your set requires it or if you don't want someone to fire 5 buy ins or something.
We do re-entries. Same number of chips you get in starting stack at same price. Players can surrender their small stacks for a re-entry or wait until busto.
First three levels only.
First three levels only.
OP
OP
SendThatStack
3 of a Kind
My players and I like big prize pools so it would be unlimited rebuy in the rebuy period. I am thinking of doing $30 t5k with rebuy anytime at or below start stack. Helps to get more money in the pool but also allows those on a budget a chance at a nice score for only $30. Thoughts?
I don't like the idea that a player could re-buy before busting without surrendering his remaining stack.
OP
OP
SendThatStack
3 of a Kind
I’ve actually never played it your way or heard of it. To me it seems unfair to have to surrender any chips in order to rebuy without being felted.
It’s actually more fair to surrender stack. Otherwise you are getting a stack bigger than the starting stack.
For instance, I could lose a big blind and “rebuy” ending up with basically 2X the stack and then have a big advantage.
OP
OP
SendThatStack
3 of a Kind
You put in 2x the money though.
I hate that surrendering a stack is even an option. If there are 10,000 chips in play and a starting stack is 1,000 chips, there shouldn’t suddenly be 10,823 chips in play. There should be 11,000 or 10,000.
Also, if the rebuy period is almost over and a player has a small stack, I like the additional strategy of purposely not calling an all-in and preventing a rebuy or calling it and potentially getting more money in the prize pool. I don’t like the idea of a player having an easy option to bail him/herself out so easily. The player should have to “earn” their rebuy.
I’ve seen several ways to run a rebuy (and a rather nice variation on it, too).
1. Obviously, one option is that you bust out, you rebuy. I prefer the rebuy period to be limited to about the first 2/5 of the tournament or so.
2. If you have less than 1/2 (or whatever percentage) of your starting stack, you can rebuy. I do not prefer this since, as somebody said earlier, you can basically buy yourself a bigger starting stack.
3. What I call a Pre-Paid Rebuy. Every player gets a starting stack and a rebuy chip as a part of their entry fee. You can redeem the rebuy chip any time (between hands) you want for free for a starting stack. Your current stack does not matter. I think this actually adds a lot of strategy to the rebuy process and I’m always for that. People use it as all-in protection or to be more aggressive and start with a bigger stack. This way, each player can kind of customize their rebuy to their playing style. (NOTE: At the end of the rebuy period, you must turn it in for your second stack of chips.)
Also, if the rebuy period is almost over and a player has a small stack, I like the additional strategy of purposely not calling an all-in and preventing a rebuy or calling it and potentially getting more money in the prize pool. I don’t like the idea of a player having an easy option to bail him/herself out so easily. The player should have to “earn” their rebuy.
I’ve seen several ways to run a rebuy (and a rather nice variation on it, too).
1. Obviously, one option is that you bust out, you rebuy. I prefer the rebuy period to be limited to about the first 2/5 of the tournament or so.
2. If you have less than 1/2 (or whatever percentage) of your starting stack, you can rebuy. I do not prefer this since, as somebody said earlier, you can basically buy yourself a bigger starting stack.
3. What I call a Pre-Paid Rebuy. Every player gets a starting stack and a rebuy chip as a part of their entry fee. You can redeem the rebuy chip any time (between hands) you want for free for a starting stack. Your current stack does not matter. I think this actually adds a lot of strategy to the rebuy process and I’m always for that. People use it as all-in protection or to be more aggressive and start with a bigger stack. This way, each player can kind of customize their rebuy to their playing style. (NOTE: At the end of the rebuy period, you must turn it in for your second stack of chips.)
I allow it at any time during the first four levels. I got this from @BGinGA and it has really worked well. Keep in mind the initial tournament buy in is $20.
Players are allowed ONE of these options anytime during the first four levels:
• Busted players can purchase a full starting stack re-buy for $20
• Players with less than ½ starting stack can purchase a ½ starting stack add-on for $10
• Players with stacks smaller than a full starting stack can exchange their existing chips for a full starting stack for $20
Players are allowed ONE of these options anytime during the first four levels:
• Busted players can purchase a full starting stack re-buy for $20
• Players with less than ½ starting stack can purchase a ½ starting stack add-on for $10
• Players with stacks smaller than a full starting stack can exchange their existing chips for a full starting stack for $20
You could run it like P* online. Something like T5K starting stack for initial buy-in (for $30) plus an instant rebuy allowed up to T10K ($30). Unlimited rebuys for the first x levels/time. If a player falls below T5K they can rebuy another T5K for $30. If they completely bust, they can rebuy for $30 or double rebuy for $60. At the end of the rebuy period, optional add-on for additional T5K for $30 as well.
Our tourney style game plays with unlimited rebuys but only when felted. Naturally, once the blinds get up, the rebuy isn't worth it but in one game one of the players asked if he could do a double rebuy (twice the money, twice the starting stack). This put a lot more money in the pot.
BUT the problem with this is that richer players just buy their way into the later stages when poorer players can't afford to keep rebuying. The last game was won by a guy who had put almost as much into the pot as he won. This means those willing to put more money in are more likely to cash which is kinda unfair in what is supposed to be a social game.
Tonight's game we are going to trial max 2 rebuys - I'll let you know how it gets on.
BUT the problem with this is that richer players just buy their way into the later stages when poorer players can't afford to keep rebuying. The last game was won by a guy who had put almost as much into the pot as he won. This means those willing to put more money in are more likely to cash which is kinda unfair in what is supposed to be a social game.
Tonight's game we are going to trial max 2 rebuys - I'll let you know how it gets on.
OP
OP
SendThatStack
3 of a Kind
Other than rebuy when felted the other options I don't like at all.
This is where I was going with it, minus the add on. I guess I just need to decide whether or not it will piss off many casual players that someone can start at 2x. But hey, they have that option too, and if its only a $30 event, they can come in for $60-120 total like they normally would at a .25/50 game.
It could be seen unfair to those who have shallower pockets but the flip side is that they get a shot at a much larger pot for a smaller entry, and when its capped at 20 players they do have a realistic chance of winning. Last time I had a rebuy event (it was rebuy when felted) people loved that some guys put a ton of buyins in. I want it to be a fun/social event but also competitive because the guys here are all very competitive.
bsdunbar1
4 of a Kind
We offer Re-Buys for the first hour.
Re-Buy is for the full amount and collects the full starting stack. You must bust out to Re-Buy.
Each player is only allowed 1 Re-Buy
We also offer a 1 time add-on after the first hour if you haven't had a Re-Buy.
Re-Buy or Add-On, you can't do both.
Re-Buy is for the full amount and collects the full starting stack. You must bust out to Re-Buy.
Each player is only allowed 1 Re-Buy
We also offer a 1 time add-on after the first hour if you haven't had a Re-Buy.
Re-Buy or Add-On, you can't do both.
For our tourney play, I allow one rebuy per player (if they're felted) for a full stack up to the 2nd break. If a player doesn't use their rebuy by the 2nd break they get a free add-on of 1/3 the starting chip stack.
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If your players are competitive then surely they would rather beat their opponents by skill rather than how deep their pockets are?
OP
OP
SendThatStack
3 of a Kind
Well from that perspective it should just be a freezeout.
Thats what I realized. Its like asking whats the best gun for concealed carry. I am going to give two options to my inner circle (3 guys) and see what they want.
Jimulacrum
Full House
You beat your opponents at poker by having more money than them as time goes on. Allowing lower-skilled players to rebuy repeatedly, though it may give them a better shot to cash in any given tournament, will also give them a better chance to lose significantly more money over time than a skilled player who strictly limits his total investment.
I've had this same argument with people about cash games many times over the years. "I don't want to be playing just to see whose pockets are deeper!" Well, you're not, though. The measure of who won isn't who has more chips or who stays in the game the longest. You sit there and carefully nurse that $60 you brought while John McRebuy empties his wallet into the bank. At the end of the night, if you did well, you might cash $150 from your $60 buy-in. And John might be out for $300, but he was in for $400. His deep pockets funded your entire profit and then some. Even if he cashed more than anyone else, he didn't actually win. If you don't see how this is good for you as a skilled player, you have a fundamental misunderstanding about what it means to win at poker.
As to tourney rebuys, I'm a fan of unlimited full rebuys—when busto only—within the first hour or hour and a half, or less if it's a fast format. Unlimited rebuys when below half a starting stack isn't bad either. But like @BGinGA said, it's all about preference, what works for you and your players.
"John McRebuy".... that made me lol.
What happens when you have a skilled player who also has deep pockets? He wins every time. That's actually the problem I have.
I'm not talking about cash games, I'm talking about tourney as the OP suggested. And I completely agree with what you said apart from accusing me of being a poker idiot. I may be an idiot, but I hope I'm not a poker idiot.
OP
OP
SendThatStack
3 of a Kind
I think I will just go with rebuy when busto. Dont want to confuse or irritate anyone so that option seems most balanced. Or maybe rebuy when below half stack.
Jimulacrum
Full House
That's a real problem, though I'd say that having one guy who's so much better than the field is a much bigger problem than rebuys. In fact, if he's so much better than everyone else, I'm having a hard time seeing why he'd need to excessively rebuy. Sure he's not just on a heater?
Sorry, didn't mean to call anyone an idiot. It does represent a fundamental misunderstanding, though. The guy who shovels a mountain of money into the prize pool is good for the game—cash or tourney. He gives everyone else a lot more money to shoot for.
Another option is a Second Chance tourney. Players get one add-on that is included in their initial buy-in. They can take it up front or any time when felted. If not used by a certain level, they automatically get it at that time. We just use a bounty chip and they surrender it when using the add-on.
RowdyRawhide
Full House
This^^^^^
I run a home tourney on occasion and also run a quarterly charity tourney, they both have slight variances.
Home:
you can rebuy as many times as you want through first break (after level 5)(most guys dont rebuy more than once)
if you havent rebought, you can add on at first break
after first break its freeze out style
Charity:
you can rebuy as many times as you want through first break
you can addon at first break even if you have rebought
after 1st break it's freeze out style
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
That's just it. You can make whatever rules you like so long as they apply fairly to all players. If your group wants the biggest prize pools and the longest tournament, make rules that favor as many opportunities to rebuy as possible. (Bust outs, short stacks, add ons at the cutoff, make a later cutoff.) If the tournaments are getting long, adjust the cutoff earlier, limit rebuys to bust outs only, limit rebuys per player. Really it's depends on what will make players want to come and how much time they want to put in.
+1, exactly the right point.
JustinInMN
4 of a Kind
Why play a game that involves skill if there's a problem with the most skilled player winning the most often? (And why is it a problem that such a player is smart enough to use winnings to keep pockets deep?)
Jimulacrum
Full House
The most skilled player should win the most often.
What he shouldn't do is win an overwhelming amount of the time—especially in a tournament group. If that's happening, it'll eventually drive many players from the game. Poker isn't very fun if you never have a real chance at winning. There has to be some balance between the sharks and the fish.
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