Lemonzest
4 of a Kind
yeah this is my view.
Counterfeiting includes the intention to deceive. Counterfeiting is primarily about intent.
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Do people have a problem with these Aria knockoff ceramics? (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter upNdown
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yeah this is my view.
Counterfeiting includes the intention to deceive. Counterfeiting is primarily about intent.
It is slightly different if Aria was in the business of selling Aria chips. In that scenario, the counterfeits are a direct competitor to their product line, and even if purchased for home/personal use, the sale of the chips affects their bottom line.
In this situation, the best approach is to get permission from the copyright/trademark holder before having them made. If granted, great. If not, well, that's the decision of the rights owner, and it's then up to the individual to decide whether or not they want to steal and use a design that does not belong to them, after being told not to.
Or you can just steal it outright without even asking.
Either way, it's theft, so make your own moral decision. There may or may not be consequences, in this life or the next.
In this situation, the best approach is to get permission from the copyright/trademark holder before having them made. If granted, great. If not, well, that's the decision of the rights owner, and it's then up to the individual to decide whether or not they want to steal and use a design that does not belong to them, after being told not to.
Or you can just steal it outright without even asking.
Either way, it's theft, so make your own moral decision. There may or may not be consequences, in this life or the next.
Rationalization. It has a lot to do with why I lock the cash drawer.
Not saying all of you would dip in...
So who are you associated with? Clearly you have some experience and knowedge in this area.
Psypher1000
Straight Flush
In simple concept, yes. In reality, it's a bit more complex than that because a) we're dealing with registered trademarks here, and b) a form of negotiable currency is implicated. When you start making replicas of either, it has the potential to raise some eyebrows.
More than anything, I think this is a quesiton of scruples.
I'm not about to crucify the dude for doing it, particularly since I think the owner is in Austrailia and I'm not sure that Aria has their stuff registered/protected down there. As for me personally, though, I don't know that I could bring myself to make a copy of artwork quite so similar to the original. This is, in significant part, due to having a number of friends who are artists & hearing them speak of the effect of copied material on their livelihood. I think there are ways to make a product look similar but still vary it enough from the original to make it clear that its your own creation. The Valentino Poker Room chips are a good example of this, IMO. They very clearly replicate the style of the Venitian Poker Room, but the Valentino line is also very clearly a pastiche, not a replica (and are a fine, mid-range, under-represented budget chip option to boot...but I digress).
Wils
Flush
It would be interesting as a "how close can I get these to the originals" project, but yes certainly when (to use my earlier analogy) I'm not making the painting myself, I'm commissioning someone else to do it, that's different.
Either way though what stays at home, stays at home.
Either way though what stays at home, stays at home.
Yes. It's sort of like a statute of limitations, or expiring copyright. Once they are closed and out of business, you don't really have to worry about ruing their product, or devaluing it. Once they don't care about their own copyrights and trademarks, the general public can quit caring also.
I think this has merit to it. Somebody brought up the point of 'copying a painting'. If I sit in my basement and do the best work I can it's called something in artistry work "Influence of art", or something like that. I don't know what exactly, but there is a term for it. Once you have that piece produced by somebody else, or somebody other than the original artist, or copyright holder, or trademark holder makes money off of it (in any way) then it becomes plagiarism.
Lemon, I do agree with what you said also about, once you attempt to deceive, it becomes counterfeiting. That's a different can of worms legally than plagiarism.
If these were created on his own, never sold by anybody (to or from the current owner, either way), and stayed in his basement without anybody else's knowledge, then whatever. But as soon as his neighbor came over, and he said "these are Aria" chips, boom. crosses the line. I'm not bashing the owner for having them made. The problem is that somebody, anybody, made money off producing the Aria logo without permission. We can debate semantics all day long: (the producer is in China, and they are going to own the world and the US with all of our debt anyways, and the owner is in Australia, who are all just ridiculously good looking with great accents, koalas, and kangaroos), but let's be real. The reason a lot of people won't care is because the Aria is part of a billion dollar cooperation. If it was a tiny local business, then people would be all against it.
Anyways, just a couple of my opinions. It's a nice set, fun for the owner, morally a terrible idea for my thoughts.
OP
OP
upNdown
Royal Flush
I don’t think that’s 100% accurate.
The Dunes has been closed for 25 years and somebody still owns the copyright or trademark or whatever. I’m not sure if Apache owns it or if they just pay a licensing fee or whatever to whomever owns it, but I’ve read here (and I believe) that you can’t just start printing and selling Dunes chips, legally.
Personally I think it’s even worse to be copying live chips, and maybe there are even additional forgery type laws that could apply there - who knows?
Lemonzest
4 of a Kind
It is true that I am more okay with it because Aria is a large corporate entity. I would be against stealing the work of an independent graphic designer.
Making decent replicas of any live chips creates some pretty obvious issues/potential issues.
Making decent replicas of any live chips creates some pretty obvious issues/potential issues.
Well, in this case, you're talking about the technical terms of 'legal, and plagiarism'. I don't think anybody here knows the answer to that. There are international copyright laws that are independent and enforced by each country individually. In one country, the government themselves could make an exact replica of an Aria chip. In another country, it would probably be just as illegal as it would be here via US copyright and trademark laws.
I was just trying to give some background on when the right people start to care to enforce legal action. After the place is out of business, closes, whatever...I think the general public loses the desire to care about copyrights and trademarks. It's like common law marriage. When everybody thinks it, then it matters. When nobody cares, then it probably doesn't matter.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
I think the issue of legality is just being nit-picky.
How many here have played poker in states where gambling (including poker) is forbidden by law?
How many have participated in raffles through this site?
How many have transported chips internationally, substantially understating their actual value?
How many have removed chips (and sometimes trays) from a casino property?
Get over your saintly selves. I don't "like" direct rip-offs. However, Claiming it's because they are/should be illegal is either hypocrisy, or you are making a point that most here routinely (and happily) ignore when the real damage to the victim is perceived to be minimal.
How many here have played poker in states where gambling (including poker) is forbidden by law?
How many have participated in raffles through this site?
How many have transported chips internationally, substantially understating their actual value?
How many have removed chips (and sometimes trays) from a casino property?
Get over your saintly selves. I don't "like" direct rip-offs. However, Claiming it's because they are/should be illegal is either hypocrisy, or you are making a point that most here routinely (and happily) ignore when the real damage to the victim is perceived to be minimal.
Ask @k9dr his opinion on somebody having ceramic knock-offs of the Iron Bank set made in China. No real damage to the victim there either, but......
Ellasdaddy
Flush
^All of this.
Either way, it's theft, so make your own moral decision. There may or may not be consequences, in this life or the next.
And this.
And definitely this. You keep using “we” and “our” in your statements. You shouldn’t just post blocks of text on a question of legality as a new/burner account and not introduce yourself or give context.
OP
OP
upNdown
Royal Flush
That’s a fair point. I’ve mentioned legal issues because they’re relevant, but I don’t think my perspective has been sainty.
The guy who runs the fireworks forum doesn’t allow people to mention specific overloads on his site. I don’t think he’s being sainty - I think he thinks he’s doing what’s best for the hobby? Overloads are fireworks that have more than the maximum amount of powder allowed by law. His hoppy is one that already faces legal challenges everywhere. So he doesn’t want to promote aspects of the hobby that can hinder its growth toward legality (though I’m sure he personally enjoys overloads.)
I’m not sure if there’s a parallel here, but there could be. Last summer there were two hybrid group buys going on, together. Did my Iron Bank pre-order get cancelled because it faced legal challenges, or did it die on the vine because the companion chips were challenged legally? I don’t know, so I can only guess, but I suspect the latter.
Personally, I don’t like counterfeit/copies, just from a taste perspective. But I think there might also be good reasons for our hobby that we shouldn’t be openly celebrating and distributing such chips.
OP
OP
upNdown
Royal Flush
Are you talking about the attempted hybrid buy which I just coincidentally mentioned, or are you talking about some other attempt at ceramic knockoffs of the Iron Bank.
Poker Zombie
Royal Flush
Still... the opinion of ceramic knock-offs of Iron Bank chips isn't based on legal issues. K9 spent good money on the Iron Bank set. The set got approval from George R.R. Martin. That makes the set something to be proud of, beyond the HoF design elements. A rip-off is just a cheap.... well... rip-off.
It's like a millionaire saying he worked hard to make a living, when he was given millions to start from his father. It's an insult to those that really did work hard to get ahead.
This I can get behind. The last thing I would like to see is PCF devolve into a "dark web" type of site, where people go to make knock-offs of authentic casino chips. It not only hampers our collective reputation, but it cheapens the site.
OP
OP
upNdown
Royal Flush
Yeah but the owner of those chips made it clear he was planning a ceramic run before k9dr won the chips in the raffle. So as much respect as I have for k9dr, I don’t agree with any misgivings he might have had about the ceramic project. And since the guy who commissioned the chips had planned a ceramic run all along, I’m not sure “knock-offs” is the right choice of words.
Not referring to the hybrid buy (which had his blessing), but if someone would today have them made as direct copies -- similar to the Aria chips.
OP
OP
upNdown
Royal Flush
Couldn’t agree more. Copying anybody’s chips is at least in poor taste and possibly probably illegal. That’s my whole point. And when I see people ordering sample sets of copies, I sort of question what we’re doing here.
The thread asks if people have a problem with the chips. I have simply given my reasons why I do. Just my opinion on why I take issue with it.
I have done all of those things that you've mentioned:
but I also think that meth, cocaine, child trafficking are all bad, and don't support them.
however, I don't care if people jaywalk, smoke weed in their home, go 5-10 mph over the speed limit on back roads.
There comes some opinion and justification to any law to everybody personally in some form or another. And we can make our own judgments on whether we think they are ok or not. I don't think it's ok for this set to be publicly announced and flaunted around.
This is by no means a burner account. I joined the forum because I had Gene make me a custom set of ceramics, I have a few thousand tourney chips, some small cash sets, and am looking to get into the chip market more, perhaps cpc, old casino burnouts, whatever it may be. It just happens that as a new account, when browsing the forum, this was one of the threads that piqued my interest. So, I started here. I just haven't set up a picture for your dirty pleasures yet.
Now, 'we, and our', in my statements can be used however I see fit. I'm not in a position to say who I am, or who I work for. That's all there is to it. I'm not allowed by company policy. I have some insight on branding, copyright, trademarks and casino asset protection. That's all. I apologize if that isn't enough for you, but it will have to be for now.
This has more merit than anything else posted here I think. This is exactly what I was getting at. People create those overloads in their basement, and use them often. But, should they be publicly announced? I agree with all of this upNdown.
And this....I joined just to see chips, get into the hobby more, and have some fun. But I do also think the forum directors should look at what's good vs bad publicity and promotion of the hobby :/
justsomedude
Royal Flush
OKkkaaaay now. Let's dial it back on the left-field analogies.
One law is designed to protect human life/limbs. The other is to protect ownership of artwork.
No one here is going to lose a hand, an eye, their house, or their life, from bootleg Aria knockoffs.
Bootleg fireworks are a different story...
jja412
Full House
I cried from laughter. That video is amazing.
Ok, so there is where the different opinions in moral law come into effect. I’d much rather people overload their own fireworks, play with the lines of stupidity, and do things like that, than steal the artwork of somebody who has to provide for their family. With every sell, ripoff, theft, they make a little less for their cause. Now, that isn’t exactly what we are talking about here...but the difference in opinions come into play.
I think the theft of ownership of artwork is farm more important and illegal than the law to protect limbs :/
justsomedude
Royal Flush
I don't value one control over the other (controlling explosives vs. artwork rights). I'm just trying to put it in perspective from the operation of a community of homemade fireworks enthusiasts vs. a community of poker chip collectors, and how it relates to liability / legal exposure.
On the one hand, the fireworks forum site owner needs to protect himself from potential legal action that might stem from some one using explosives unsafely, especially if the "overload" information is gleaned from that site's own pages/threads. If some one uses that information and injures themselves, the forum admin could potentially be held responsible for publishing said information.
On the other hand... the PCF site owner will face no legal repercussion as a result of a community member taking it upon himself to produce chips with copyrighted artwork. The general rule of thumb here has always been "don't do it" when it comes to using copyrighted work. And the admins have always been clear on that point. Even if other community members say, "proceed at your own risk," the responsibility still falls on the guy who made the chips and placed the order.
I don't want anyone breaking laws - but no one here will be bearing responsibility for some one else's chip purchase. The advice regarding safe/unsafe explosive practices is really a completely different issue as it pertains to the legal liability of the respective site admins.
So then these: Bueno, o no bueno?
OP
OP
upNdown
Royal Flush
The fireworks forum isn't about homemade fireworks - the overloads that aren't allowed to be discussed are retail fireworks that have snuck by or been overlooked by inspectors, or whatever. So the guy who runs that site doesn't want people saying "Go buy x firework this year - it's an overload." I don't remember exactly why he said he polices those kind of posts, but I'm sure it's not about personal legal liability (because he really couldn't have any) and it's not about safety either. It's something about not encouraging or promoting things that are bad for the hobby.
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/bellagio-ceramic-replica-chips-x500-all-brand-new.29363/
Selling them as 'brand new' replica chips... He payed 4 cents/chip (probably), and selling them for .70.... I'm having a hard time seeing how he didn't create the replica in order to profit off of it.
Again, cool looking chips, I'd like to have some for my basement set just to throw around. I have other problems with it... :/
Selling them as 'brand new' replica chips... He payed 4 cents/chip (probably), and selling them for .70.... I'm having a hard time seeing how he didn't create the replica in order to profit off of it.
Again, cool looking chips, I'd like to have some for my basement set just to throw around. I have other problems with it... :/
I’m not sure what the big deal is
it’s against company policy for me to give my job title, or place of employment on social media that relates to my workplace.
I have every right to join the forum anonymously... There will be no band or fanfare, because there will be no reveal.
I can shut up, that's fine. I thought this place would be a good place to hang out with hobbyists, learn more, give opinions. So I found a topic that I feel strongly about, gave my opinions from my experiences and background, and now I can't because I won't give you my birthday, name, workplace, mothers maiden name? Maybe this isn't the place for me. You're right.
it’s against company policy for me to give my job title, or place of employment on social media that relates to my workplace.I have every right to join the forum anonymously... There will be no band or fanfare, because there will be no reveal.
I can shut up, that's fine. I thought this place would be a good place to hang out with hobbyists, learn more, give opinions. So I found a topic that I feel strongly about, gave my opinions from my experiences and background, and now I can't because I won't give you my birthday, name, workplace, mothers maiden name? Maybe this isn't the place for me. You're right.
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