Tourney How to fix a bad structure (when they don’t know it’s broken)? (1 Viewer)

[krafticus]

I’ll preface this with, it’s not my game. I’m sure my game could use some tweaks as well that I’m unaware I’m doing wrong too…

With that being said, I started playing in one of my regular’s monthly game and I think it needs help. The problem; he’s been running it this way for a long time and I’m not sure if it’s fixable.

Here’s how it’s structured:
- $50 buy-in gets you 15k in chips (cool)
- $30 for a full rebuy (15k) before the 1st break (I’m not sure, but maybe the “league” fees aren’t collected here.. if so, ok)
- $25 gets you a 20k add-on if you haven’t rebought. (Don’t like this)

Starting stacks are 5x100, 5x500, 7x1000, 1x5000. He bought my cards mold set, and I known he can do a much better breakdown. I’ll give him the remaining chips too if I can find them.

Blinds go:
100/100
100/200
200/400
300/600
400/800
500/1000
(Break - no color up) — we’re ok for now
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
2000/4000
3000/6000
4000/8000
5000/10000
(Break) - whoa… now it went from cool to turbo. After 800/1600 he casually colors up the 100 and 500’s. I’m all for a shorter night, but this is nuts.

Payouts are linear (not that I’ve ever been paid out).. 40%/30/20/10. Never a fan of a linear payout schedule, as there’s no reason to really play for then win when a chop benefits everyone.(sort of)

My big issues are the huge add-on for more than a starting stack for less money, the chip breakdown, and the structure .

Now the tough part.. how can you get them to change if they’ve been doing it this way. While it’s not THAT bad, it certainly needs help.

Thoughts??

 

[Cliff]

Suck it up and don’t say shit cause you don’t want to offend the host?

Can we also talk about the one cut card issue?

 

[doublebooyah85]

Initial thoughts

- add a 1500/3000 level
- maybe a 2500/5000 level but at some point it needs to end

I don’t like the add on. Add ons are awful. Ask your host if everyone adds on (as they should) it’s pointless and completely makes the poker you played before that break almost pointless. Maybe move the add on to a on time bonus. That HELPS the event

 

[Tonystark137]

Don't love the add on. Typically not a fan of add on but whatever.

As a non tournament player I do question why the rebuy is significantly less than the initial.

The turbo ramp up is definitely turn me off, but again not really a tournament player...

All in all the structure seems like a friendly neighborhood tournament. The turbo ramp could just be cause the host wants to end on a certain time.

 

[upNdown]

Can we also talk about the one cut card issue?

Ha! There’s a PCFer who has played at my game, who pushed us to use one single cut card with two decks. It worked really well when he was there. But we’re mostly dummies and we couldn’t reproduce it when he wasnt there.

@krafticus i hear you. The odd amounts for rebuys and addons would tilt me, as well as the other issues. If it were me, I guess I’d either play there for a while before privately talking to the host about that stuff, or I’d just stay away.
Because if they’ve been doing it that way for a while, I think you’d do better to become one of them before you try to get them to change.

 

[krafticus]

Suck it up and don’t say shit cause you don’t want to offend the host?

Can we also talk about the one cut card issue?

Probably. I was going to be ultra passive aggressive and fold every hand until the 1st break and get my huge ass add-on as it’s cheaper than rebuying. If he questioned it, I’d be honest. I’ll do the math to see what the value would be at Roughy 2 orbits per level. I’ll also show up 5 minutes before I’m too late too play.

Think we could get him to add a few more hundos to the starting stack?

 

[krafticus]

Probably. I was going to be ultra passive aggressive and fold every hand until the 1st break and get my huge ass add-on as it’s cheaper than rebuying. If he questioned it, I’d be honest. I’ll do the math to see what the value would be at Roughy 2 orbits per level. I’ll also show up 5 minutes before I’m too late too play.

Think we could get him to add a few more hundos to the starting stack?

Quick math says if I show up on time, I’d lose roughly 9400 in blinds. With the $25 add-on, I’d start the next level with 25,600.

If I show up an hour late, I’d lose 7200, so I’d start with 27,800 with the add-on.

Almost makes more sense to show up an hour late, fold blind, and add-on. YMMV…

 

[LotsOfChips]

Suck it up and don’t say shit cause you don’t want to offend the host?

Yeah, this.

I've played in more than a couple of games where things were less than ideal (very old used paper cards, baffling blind structure, odd house rules, etc.).

You're not going to do anything by making suggestions to change a long established game other than to alienate the host and most of the players.

Your choices are (IMO) to keep quiet and find ways to exploit the game, or find a different game to attend.

 

[Jers28]

I have a friend who hosts these types of tournaments 3-4 times a year. His structure is different every single time I have been and it’s always a shit show. Worse, he doesn’t have a single decent table, uses plastic chips that don’t even match or have denominations on them, etc. I confess, I primarily went to appease my friend and recruit some new blood to my game. Since my buddy only plays a couple times a year, a weekly cash game isn’t “competing” for his players or anything. Long story short, I hate everything about his tournaments.

My solution was to bring a set of Tina’s I will never use and to simply gift them to him. They aren’t amazing, but they are an actual set designed for MTTs, so at least we won’t have to deal with players using three different color chips for the same denomination. I didn’t even mention the structure problems at all. That can’t possibly be offensive, right? Wrong. When I offered him the gift set (only Tina’s, but still never felted even once), he looked at me like I’d hit on his wife and said “I already have chips”. Noted! I brought them back to my car. I played and jammed the first hand I got, which happened to be 7/2 off. When called and stacked, some of the guys asked why I’d jam on the first hand with rags? I said “you guys don’t play the 7/2 game here?” And that was my day. lol. I’m not playing and I can’t fix it when even gifts are looked at as insults. You can have my $50, I’d rather rearrange my sock drawer than play in that shit show.

*Yes, I know the 7/2 is a cash game thing. That was the joke.

 

[JustinInMN]

30 for a full rebuy (15k) before the 1st break (I’m not sure, but maybe the “league” fees aren’t collected here.. if so, ok)
- $25 gets you a 20k add-on if you haven’t rebought. (Don’t like this)

Starting stacks are 5x100, 5x500, 7x1000, 1x5000. He bought my cards mold set, and I known he can do a much better breakdown.

So these are the only two things over which I would have some concern.

1) not a fan of discount rebuys and add-ons, but your point is well taken if this is just a question of only applying league fees at the first time.

Still this structure seems to incentivise rebuys and add ons instead of making rebuys a hardship.

2). The starting stack instantly gets better if he switches to 10*100 and 4*500. I imagine change-making has a lot of difficulty as is, so this is probably something enough players might mention.

As for the politics of influencing a game you don't host, there really is only so far you can push. I really think the buy in structure is probably too into their culture, so just know if you choose to play, you are incentivised to put as much money in as you can.

As for the top chips, maybe just ask to trade in for extra blacks for your table when you play as a way to show it will run smoother?

 

[LotsOfChips]

he looked at me like I’d hit on his wife and said “I already have chips”

ROTFLMAO, that's the funniest thing I've read for a long time.

 

[JustinInMN]

Ha! There’s a PCFer who has played at my game, who pushed us to use one single cut card with two decks. It worked really well when he was there. But we’re mostly dummies and we couldn’t reproduce it when he wasnt there.

Ha! I did this on accident last time I hosted a multi (read "two") table tournament.

I apparently only had put one cut card with the two decks on table 2 (not where the host sits) and didn't realize until the second break.

They got by just fine. So no big deal either way I suppose.

 

[justsomedude]

Addons suck. But even then, WhyTF is the addon bigger than the starting stack and rebuy, and the lowest price???

Host is bonkers. There's no fixing this.

 

[Jimulacrum]

I’ll preface this with, it’s not game. I’m sure my game could use some tweaks as well that I’m unaware I’m doing wrong too…

With that being said, I started playing in one of my regular’s monthly game and I think it needs help. The problem; he’s been running it this way for a long time and I’m not sure if it’s fixable.

Here’s how it’s structured:
- $50 buy-in gets you 15k in chips (cool)
- $30 for a full rebuy (15k) before the 1st break (I’m not sure, but maybe the “league” fees aren’t collected here.. if so, ok)
- $25 gets you a 20k add-on if you haven’t rebought. (Don’t like this)

Starting stacks are 5x100, 5x500, 7x1000, 1x5000. He bought my cards mold set, and I known he can do a much better breakdown. I’ll give him the remaining chips too if I can find them.

Blinds go:
100/100
100/200
200/400
300/600
400/800
500/1000
(Break - no color up) — we’re ok for now
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
2000/4000
3000/6000
4000/8000
5000/10000
(Break) - whoa… now it went from cool to turbo. After 800/1600 he casually colors up the 100 and 500’s. I’m all for a shorter night, but this is nuts.

Payouts are linear (not that I’ve ever been paid out).. 40%/30/20/10. Never a fan of a linear payout schedule, as there’s no reason to really play for then win when a chop benefits everyone.(sort of)

My big issues are the huge add-on for more than a starting stack for less money, the chip breakdown, and the structure .

Now the tough part.. how can you get them to change if they’ve been doing it this way. While it’s not THAT bad, it certainly needs help.

Thoughts??

I used to play in a league that had some of these same buy-in/rebuy/add-on issues:

• $30 initial buy-in = $20 entry + $10 league fee
• rebuy for a full stack for $20 (normal buy-in minus league fee)
• add-on for $10 for IIRC a full stack; the whole $10 goes to the league
• pay $1 at each break to spin a wheel app for a small additional add-on (like 1K max even when that was less than a BB)

When I took it over mid-season. I ran it out this way for the rest of the season and then made some changes that set it up so the max out of pocket was $40.

Then, down the line, other folks took over the game and made some changes of their own. It's currently $40 initial buy-in ($20 entry + $20 league fee). No rebuys, no add-ons, no nothing. People seem to appreciate the simplicity of a freezeout and of not paying for additional stuff after they already paid to get in (even if the total is the same). In your case, the rebuys and add-ons probably exist for a reason. Maybe a place to start there is to ask the host why and see if you can find a way to convince him it's better to simplify.

As to the blinds, I'd kill the 100/100 level entirely, add a 1,500/3,000 level after 1,000/2,000, and space out the breaks more evenly. Beyond that, the blind progression looks fine.

The thing that really bothers me is:

After 800/1600 he casually colors up the 100 and 500’s.

This kind of thing should always be done during breaks, or at the very least action should be paused to take care of it in a clear, regimented way that leaves no room for anyone's choices to influence anything.

Coloring up sometimes ends up increasing or decreasing people's stacks. If the host is just doing it by the seat of his pants, it could materially affect outcomes, especially for players on short stacks. (Imagine if all you have left is a 500 chip and a 100 chip. Whether the host has colored you up yet makes a 67% difference in the size of your stack, and whether it happens before or after a hand that gets you all-in is based entirely on how the host felt like doing it.)

In some cases, this could unfairly cause advantage or disadvantage for some players.

In the worst of the worst cases, this could be caused intentionally. You can bet the host will be eager to color himself up when he only has a 500 and a 100.

Better for it to not even be a question. Just schedule the blinds and breaks so that color-up periods naturally fall during breaks and the host does not have freedom to decide who gets colored up when. It's not that hard.

 

[chippitydoodah]

The toughest thing about other people's games is that they're other people's games. Sounds like you figured out how to capitalize on the structure so go with it next time.

*Wouldn't it be funny if it works then next game more guys do the same thing. Pretty soon nobody would be there until the cut off lol.

 

[springbox]

Suck it up and don’t say shit cause you don’t want to offend the host?

Can we also talk about the one cut card issue?

Ha! I did this on accident last time I hosted a multi (read "two") table tournament.

I apparently only had put one cut card with the two decks on table 2 (not where the host sits) and didn't realize until the second break.

They got by just fine. So no big deal either way I suppose.

What's wrong with one cut card? That's usually what I do.

 

[PlaidDragon]

I’ll preface this with, it’s not game. I’m sure my game could use some tweaks as well that I’m unaware I’m doing wrong too…

With that being said, I started playing in one of my regular’s monthly game and I think it needs help. The problem; he’s been running it this way for a long time and I’m not sure if it’s fixable.

Here’s how it’s structured:
- $50 buy-in gets you 15k in chips (cool)
- $30 for a full rebuy (15k) before the 1st break (I’m not sure, but maybe the “league” fees aren’t collected here.. if so, ok)
- $25 gets you a 20k add-on if you haven’t rebought. (Don’t like this)

Starting stacks are 5x100, 5x500, 7x1000, 1x5000. He bought my cards mold set, and I known he can do a much better breakdown. I’ll give him the remaining chips too if I can find them.

Blinds go:
100/100
100/200
200/400
300/600
400/800
500/1000
(Break - no color up) — we’re ok for now
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
2000/4000
3000/6000
4000/8000
5000/10000
(Break) - whoa… now it went from cool to turbo. After 800/1600 he casually colors up the 100 and 500’s. I’m all for a shorter night, but this is nuts.

Payouts are linear (not that I’ve ever been paid out).. 40%/30/20/10. Never a fan of a linear payout schedule, as there’s no reason to really play for then win when a chop benefits everyone.(sort of)

My big issues are the huge add-on for more than a starting stack for less money, the chip breakdown, and the structure .

Now the tough part.. how can you get them to change if they’ve been doing it this way. While it’s not THAT bad, it certainly needs help.

Thoughts??

What I don't like:

1) Only five of the T100 in the starting stack is pretty bad. I'd expect there will be a huge amount of change-making going on that the dealer(s) will have to handle. This will slow down the game. Eight or ten of the base denom is what I (most?) would consider adequate.

2) His add-on structure is wonky and either serves to bloat the buy-in total, the chips in play, or both. I don't understand the reasoning between the differing rebuy/add-on amounts and chips they garner. The add-on being greater that the starting stack is something I'd never do.

For comparison, in my tourneys, I'll include a specific Rebuy chip with a starting stack. It gives the option for a stacked player to turn it in and pay the buy-in again up until a certain point (usually L8 or L12 depending on my structure). Players that DO NOT need to use it by the rebuy cutoff are rewarded, and turn it in for a FREE add-on of 50% of a starting stack, which only ends up being around 4-6 BBs at the time.

3) I don't like the 100% increase in blinds at L3 and L10, while other levels (L7) increase as little as 20% (see below)

(24 players is a guestimate)

IMHO the 100% increases just chop the legs out of peoples stacks whereas the small increases represent too little of a change. My personal preference is a more uniform increase between 33%-50% a level.

Regarding "the tough part" of getting him to change: yeah, this is dicey given it IS someone else's game.

What I would do is address one small thing at a time starting with what might be the simplest issue; the starting stacks. If he's amenable and implements this change, give him some time to recognize it's value over a few sessions, then suggest something else.... and so on. The moment he pushes back though you're pretty much done and have to let it go.

What do the rest of the players think about his format? If they are squawking about these same things you might run with what they are saying and make suggestions. I don't know your friend, but you have to be careful doing this given he might perceive everyone as ganging up on him and resent it.

 

[Ben8257]

Blah blah blah blah…

My advice old friend! Don’t go!!

I know who you sold those chips to, the host sucks! The chips aren’t great (except the designer that Kraft guy is swell!) the chips aren’t great breakdown I would get up and walk out! 8/8/6/6 absolutely f**king sucks and anyone that argues that deserves a dirty butt plug shoved up a nostril! Less than 8/8/6/6 I will be vocal and let you know that never again will I come back!

I’m surprised you and Cliff are surprised… the dude has a personality of a popcorn fart that got stuck in the oven for 5 hours and then got trapped in 3 heavy duty dryer cycles on heavy duty but only 3 pairs of crusty panties rolling around! On a scale of one to 100 for fun, the dude is a negative 100!!

Still scratching my head on how you guys ever thought that would be a fun game?

I would rather have explosive diarrhea chained to a table naked at the worst meet up ever, than play at his game ONE time… even for 5 minutes… no thanks!

My “road to WSOP” will never be through that “club” F That!!

TL/DR stop going… that guy sucks!

 

[chippitydoodah]

What's wrong with one cut card? That's usually what I do.

BANNED! Actually I prefer 2 cut cards because while one of them is on the bottom of the deck being dealt, the other can be placed on top of the next deck after shuffling waiting to be cut.

 

[JustinInMN]

What's wrong with one cut card? That's usually what I do.

When I do a shuffle behind, when I am done, I place the cut card on top of the deck to signal I am done shuffling and it is ready to be passed to the next dealer. (Also offers some protection to the deck when it's being passed.)

Admittedly not a huge deal and you can operate rather fine without.

I imagine others might have opinions on this if we are going to threadjack .

 

[Ben8257]

Sorry @krafticus … it’s for your own good brother!

 

[chippitydoodah]

BANNED! Actually I prefer 2 cut cards because while one of them is on the bottom of the deck being dealt, the other can be placed on top of the next deck after shuffling waiting to be cut.

When I do a shuffle behind, when I am done, I place the cut card on top of the deck to signal I am done shuffling and it is ready to be passed to the next dealer. (Also offers some protection to the deck when it's being passed.)

Admittedly not a huge deal and you can operate rather fine without.

I imagine others might have opinions on this if we are going to threadjack .

 

[LotsOfChips]

I would rather have explosive diarrhea chained to a table naked at the worst meet up ever, than play at his game ONE time… even for 5 minutes… no thanks!

LOL, why don't you tell us what you really think!

 

[krafticus]

When I do a shuffle behind, when I am done, I place the cut card on top of the deck to signal I am done shuffling and it is ready to be passed to the next dealer. (Also offers some protection to the deck when it's being passed.)

Admittedly not a huge deal and you can operate rather fine without.

I imagine others might have opinions on this if we are going to threadjack .

I do the same thing.

I will say, this other game did recently switch from Shuffle ahead to shuffle behind (without any influence from me)

 

[krafticus]

LOL, why don't you tell us what you really think!

Let’s not……

 

[Cliff]

BANNED! Actually I prefer 2 cut cards because while one of them is on the bottom of the deck being dealt, the other can be placed on top of the next deck after shuffling waiting to be cut.

This is the way

 

[Rodog123]

Great thread y'all interesting story. I refuse to play with dice chips and paper cards, if I see that I will straight up leave before the cards fly. As far as the 2 cut cards.... I would have never considered having two cut cards in play at the table, seriously I will need to do this going forward.

 

[bigdonkey]

Sorry @krafticus … it’s for your own good brother!
View attachment 1646299

At least you were thorough in crossing out ***ck's name. It's important to protect C*u**, as *h**k would probably be upset if outted. Fortunately no-one will ever be able able to decode Ch*c*'s name.

 

[Preditor]

Now the tough part.. how can you get them to change if they’ve been doing it this way. While it’s not THAT bad, it certainly needs help.

As someone who is a control freak (I am a video editor and not cinematographer or a reason), this is tough, and I get it.

My question would be this: What are you getting out of this game? Do you go more for the poker, or the community?

I agree with the structural issues. But it IS someone else's game... yet you're still going. And it's been going a long time you said, so he must be doing something right. There must be something else driving you there. Is it the other attendees as friends? Some sense of loyalty to the host?

For myself, I host my own league and ALSO attend other home games. Some of those other leagues I have disagreements with regarding their blind structure, etc. But I made a deliberate choice a while ago to not complain how those other leagues are run. If I am really close with the host, I may throw out ideas here and there; but they are - at the end of the day - other peoples' games.

Hosting is difficult. You get nothing for it (if you're doing it legally, that is) other than hearing people complain a lot.

I don't like those people in my home game; so I don't want to be that person in other people's home games.

If you really want to make a suggestion? Feel the waters. At the end of the day, I think change is slow for a game like this. Try throwing out a small idea to the host, and see how he responds. Pick your battles. Maybe start with the add-on issue, and go from there, little by little. Issue by issue. Month after month.

 

[Jimulacrum]

But I made a deliberate choice a while ago to not complain how those other leagues are run. If I am really close with the host, I may throw out ideas here and there; but they are - at the end of the day - other peoples' games.

This is the way.