Questionable hand at my home game (4 Viewers)

[twosevenbluff]

Looking to get some guidance on how a hand was played out at my home game recently. I'll preface this with my game is played with a close group of friends and we ultimately solved the problem amicably. But, i want to know the PCF thoughts on how it was vs. should have been handled.

The hand went heads up on the river. player A held 9,X, while player B held pocket 4s. Board ran out 4, 9, A, 9, A. both players shoved all-in. now at this point in the game, it was late, we'd all had drinks and were winding down for the night. After both players bet, player B had lead the all in so they showed 4,4 for the 4,4,4,A,A full house. Player A then says, "you go it" and throws his cards in face down. player B starts pulling in chips and player A says their "trip 9s didn't get there, good hand". the rest of the table realizes Player A in fact held a full house of 9,9,9,A,A, which would clearly win the hand. IF they had laid it down. discussion ensued and ultimately player A was given the pot, which they decided to concede half of the pot to player B on the count of not catching their own winning hand.

my question is: since the discovery of the winning hand came verbally, and then all cards were turned up: should player A have been awarded the win? or does it go to player B because player A tossed in the cards without showing at first? I think technically because the cards were tossed in face down, player B should have won with the lesser hand. but curious to get feedback so i can be a better host and know how to deal with any similar situations in the future.

 

[TheRealStephen12]

Player B wins; if you muck your cards you're ineligible to win unless you were the last person left in the pot.

 

[Kam]

Yeah, unless Player A’s cards are still on the table in front of him face down and clearly separate from other cards not touching or in the muck, Player B takes it.

When you say Player A tosses his cards ‘in’, assume you mean into the muck? As soon as they’re mucked it’s game over/ dead hand etc. If they’ve not touched the muck and the next hand hasn’t started, I think you flip ‘em over and the cards decide regardless of what Player A said he had.

Also, it’s a friendly home game so your rules.

 

[Colquhoun]

I'm all for sticking tight to the rules in a card room or casino...with the verbal declaration and motion to muck the cards, it looks like Player A conceded the hand to Player B.
However, since this is a home game, and Player A's cards are clearly idenifiable...I'm more inclined to give it to Player B.

 

[Eriks]

Strictly speaking the mucked hand is dead and player B wins.

In a home game setting I’m all for doing whatever is in the best interest of the game. In my experience that’s usually to give breaks to first time offenders e.g. let intension guide the ruling on the one-chip rule or why not let a mucked yet retrievable hand play.

I think one exception (maybe there are others) is forgetting to show/reminding others to show during the nit game. I’d never give anyone a break there since it’s such an important part of that game.

 

[mattross1313]

I think one exception (maybe there are others) is forgetting to show/reminding others to show during the nit game. I’d never give anyone a break there since it’s such an important part of that game

I forgot to do this at @JP1984 's game, ended up costing me stupid game

 

[Baxit]

I'm surprised people vote for B. If player A cards can be retrieved from the muck and proved to be 9X, then cards speak - since this is showdown - and A wins. Even in the muck, they're not dead until they can't be retrieved. It's not uncommon to see tired players conceding winning hands after showdown, In this case, all players noticing the mistake must call it (per TDA rules iirc). This is well summed up in this r_poker post:

 

[Baxit]

That reminds me of a WSOP incident with French journalist Estelle Denis : she went all in with (alleged) pocketed Aces, but the dealer mucked her unprotected cards by mistake. She asked the dealer to find the cards, to no avail, floor came in and ruled that since the cards couldn't be retrieved, her hand was dead. However she was given back her bet and was later compensated by WSOP.
Wow, nowadays everything is on yt :

 

[TheJestyr]

If you’re at a friendly game where no one ever angle shoots and everyone is trying to act with integrity, then it’s easy to give someone the benefit of the doubt. Some of these guys are only playing once a month at most, and especially when drinks are flowing and it’s later in the night, I barely consider that “poker” anymore (only slightly kidding)

But it can be a slippery slope if the game is more serious and/or you’ve got a player who habitually bends the rules. Then I’m far less likely to let that kinda stuff slide. (Obviously there’s nuances to all of this, but that’s a pretty good starting point.)

 

[FordPickup92]

This is why I always ask the host and regulars what the house rules are. Most friendly home games will say, you must show all cards in your hand face up to win a pot unless the entire table has folded to you. So now I just lay my cards face up, especially when playing mixed games. I don't really care about whether I was trying to bluff or not. Cards speak, end of story. If you have any question at all about what your hand is or even if you're not sure you won the hand or not, it's better to just expose your hand.
Glad you guys were able to resolve the scenario on good terms with everyone and it sounds like a solid honest group

Edit: it might be even more appropriate to say, you must show all cards in your hand to be awarded the pot
The mucked cards scenario is really tough to navigate. In this instance I would look to @inca911 or some one of the like with extensive experience for a solution

 

[JMC9389]

Player B wins. Player A mucked his cards.

 

[dizzyChipper]

I'm surprised people vote for B. If player A cards can be retrieved from the muck and proved to be 9X, then cards speak - since this is showdown - and A wins. Even in the muck, they're not dead until they can't be retrieved. It's not uncommon to see tired players conceding winning hands after showdown, In this case, all players noticing the mistake must call it (per TDA rules iirc). This is well summed up in this r_poker post:
View attachment 1633137

This is correct.

During a hand with action to follow a verbal fold is a fold (especially with action continuing).

At showdown in your local casino card room try to verbally concede a hand and see how that goes. The dealer will wait and just stare at you.

Mistake 1) When the player “mucked” a better trained pro dealer is taking that folded hand and firing it into the muck.

We know the outcome then. 4s full wins.

Mistake 2) When the player says “my 9 didn’t get there” nobody should’ve said anything. It’s that players job to read their un-tabled hand. The dealer should’ve still taken the folded hand and shoved it in the muck (note:
Shoved into. Not placed on top). If player tables hand and says “Bummer I only had trip 9’s” then it’s the tables job to speak up.

Once the player with the 9 realizes he has the winner he can physically get his easily retrievable cards that didn’t hit the muck and table them. So can the dealer once the player asks.

If the player realized on their own they had the winner this is 100% the rule.

Floor could rule in the best interest of the game that the table told the player they won so wont allow the retrieve. They could, but they likely wouldn’t. If the hand is easily retrievable it will be.

The most likely outcome in a casino is:

1. Table gets a verbal warning “1 player per hand.”
2. Dealer gets a warning from his boss to truly muck hands that are “conceded”.
3. Player with 9x wins the pot.

 

[Kam]

That reminds me of a WSOP incident with French journalist Estelle Denis : she went all in with (alleged) pocketed Aces, but the dealer mucked her unprotected cards by mistake. She asked the dealer to find the cards, to no avail, floor came in and ruled that since the cards couldn't be retrieved, her hand was dead. However she was given back her bet and was later compensated by WSOP.
Wow, nowadays everything is on yt :

I watched that again the other day (in a DM about card cappers) - it was the laziest effort ever to retrieve the cards by the TD. They just picked up a couple cards off the top of the muck - you’d expect they’d look at all of them. But rule still stands, the TD /casino aint going to bat for you.

 

[softchewy]

Did player A’s cards actually hit the muck when he throws his cards “in” face down?

With the given info in a home game with close friends at the end of the night with many drinks; if player A’s cards are 100% identifiable, probably award to player A or split the pot between A and B if you want to make it a bit of a “teaching” moment .

 

[joeyshin]

if you didnt know you won...you dont deserve the pot. LOL

 

[dizzyChipper]

if you didnt know you won...you dont deserve the pot. LOL

This is true but in this case player did know they won [after the table told him]. If table doesn't speak up 44 wins.

 

[Colquhoun]

 

[RadicusScout]

I'm surprised people vote for B. If player A cards can be retrieved from the muck and proved to be 9X, then cards speak - since this is showdown - and A wins. Even in the muck, they're not dead until they can't be retrieved. It's not uncommon to see tired players conceding winning hands after showdown, In this case, all players noticing the mistake must call it (per TDA rules iirc). This is well summed up in this r_poker post:
View attachment 1633137

My game would have played it exactly like @twosevenbluff's game but it's good to know the technical ruling on this.

 

[dizzyChipper]

Did player A’s cards actually hit the muck when he throws his cards “in” face down?

With the given info in a home game with close friends at the end of the night with many drinks; if player A’s cards are 100% identifiable, probably award to player A or split the pot between A and B if you want to make it a bit of a “teaching” moment .

Good question. In my long write-up above I assumed they did not hit the muck due to the line "...and then all cards were turned up". But if you fished around in the muck and found a 9 and said its that guys hand it's dead and he should not win the pot.

 

[dizzyChipper]

View attachment 1633224

Maybe my big ass write-up above is wrong. (Two mistakes pointed out are certainly true though.)

Maybe players intent to muck would push floor to not allowing them to be retrieved even if easily identifiable.

If @twosevenbluff can let us know if the 9x hand was clearly identifiable I'll ask Parx and Borgata Floor Supervisors for a ruling.

--Diz

 

[Josh Kifer]

No one has ever lied at a poker table before....

So reveal HAS to happen. If they are mucked, it's table talk and not valid. Pot goes to the 44's

I will say, we allow a correction if the cards aren't scooped and in the muck. But that's when I punish them by bringing it up nearly every hand for 3 or so hours.

 

[twosevenbluff]

to clarify, Player A's card were tossed in the middle of the table face down, but not yet mucked when they claimed the 9. ultimately the cards were flipped over after the table caught the mistake, and confirmed they did have the cards they claimed. most of the players present have never played in an actual casino, and i tried to use this as a teaching moment, it was player A who initiated the pot split. Player B had offered the split wasn't necessary, but i think it showed intent to be fair in the situation.

 

[dizzyChipper]

to clarify, Player A's card were tossed in the middle of the table face down, but not yet mucked when they claimed the 9. ultimately the cards were flipped over after the table caught the mistake, and confirmed they did have the cards they claimed. most of the players present have never played in an actual casino, and i tried to use this as a teaching moment, it was player A who initiated the pot split. Player B had offered the split wasn't necessary, but i think it showed intent to be fair in the situation.

OK. Next question. Did the player asked that their cards be revealed or did the dealer just do it after the commotion.

And yeah - home game - whoever is awarded the pot offering a split or some other rebate is quite common and reasonable.

 

[Taghkanic]

Muddy situation here. In a home game where you absolutely believe no one will angle/cheat, I could see allowing the retrieval, if and only if the player clearly recalls both of his cards (suits included) and they are located reasonably together and no one else says, “Waait a second, I think I had the 9 of clubs” etc.

The fact that the mucker agreed to split the pot is nice, though not proof of anything. But, home game, friends… Fun and amity are important.

That said: There are plenty of cases of longtime, trusted friends being caught cheating, even at microstakes. So.

Also, I note that the rule cited about retrieval is at the floor’s discretion, not an absolute.

If (say) the muck has been pushed together with the stub already, anyone can say “Oh, wait, I had 9something!” Every card not already face up is in the combined muck. The floor has to make a subjective judgement.

Though not a rule Nazi, my group is cohesive enough and resilient enough that I tend to try to enforce rules fairly strictly. Not to be a dick, but to prevent people from getting too loosey-goosey, eating sandwiches over the felt…

 

[twosevenbluff]

OK. Next question. Did the player asked that their cards be revealed or did the dealer just do it after the commotion.

And yeah - home game - whoever is awarded the pot offering a split or some other rebate is quite common and reasonable.

i honestly don't remember who flipped the cards, i wanna say the player retrieved them and flipped them

 

[dizzyChipper]

Muddy situation here. In a home game where you absolutely believe no one will angle/cheat, I could see allowing the retrieval, if and only if the player clearly recalls both of his cards (suits included) and they are located reasonably together and no one else says, “Waait a second, I think I had the 9 of clubs” etc.

The fact that the mucker agreed to split the pot is nice, though not proof of anything. But, home game, friends… Fun and amity are important.

That said: There are plenty of cases of longtime, trusted friends being caught cheating, even at microstakes. So.

Also, I note that the rule cited about retrieval is at the floor’s discretion, not an absolute.

If (say) the muck has been pushed together with the stub already, anyone can say “Oh, wait, I had 9something!” Every card not already face up is in the combined muck. The floor has to make a subjective judgement.

Though not a rule Nazi, my group is cohesive enough and resilient enough that I tend to try to enforce rules fairly strictly. Not to be a dick, but to prevent people from getting too loosey-goosey, eating sandwiches over the felt…

I don't think anybody is arguing dead cards should be pulled from the muck in this situation when the player misread there own hand and folded based on no misinformation or a dealer mistake or a player angle. It's the easily retrievable nature of the hand VS the players intent to dead their hand at odds.

 

[chippitydoodah]

The second my cards leave my fingers as I fold my hand I don't expect them to come back. I also fully expect everyone at the table to tell me "too bad" if I realize I threw away a winning hand.

 

[Taghkanic]

I don't think anybody is arguing dead cards should be pulled from the muck

I’ve actually seen this done multiple times in a casino, and some people seem to think that is a good thing.

 

[dizzyChipper]

Borgata Floor gives it to the 9x.

 

[LotsOfChips]

I have a rule in my House Rules covering this scenario...

• Cards touching or touched by mucked cards are not automatically killed.
  
  • Mistakenly discarded hole cards may be retrieved provided that they can be clearly identified by at least two different players

It's a home game - I'm willing to relax the stricter Casino rules a little bit in this case in order to keep the game friendly. Others may disagree.