Push Fold charts with open raise (1 Viewer)

[slyninja33]

My understanding is that most push fold charts assume you are the open raise. Are there any tools for studying cases where someone else has already raised? For example, if UTG raises, and it folds to you on the button.

 

[CraigT78]

My understanding is that most push fold charts assume you are the open raise. Are there any tools for studying cases where someone else has already raised? For example, if UTG raises, and it folds to you on the button.

That's an excellent and very specific question, and you are absolutely correct. Standard "push/fold" charts are for the first-in player (an open-shove).

When you're facing a raise, as in your example (UTG opens, folds to you on the Button), you're in a completely different and more complex situation. You're no longer pushing; you're 3-betting (which could be a 3-bet shove if stacks are short) or calling.

The tools for studying this are more advanced and fall into a few categories.

1. "Re-shove" or "3-Bet Shove" Charts
This is the most direct step up from basic push/fold charts. These static charts are designed for short-stack situations (e.g., 15-30 big blinds) and show you which hands are profitable to re-shove all-in over an opponent's open-raise.

They are far less common than open-shove charts because they depend on more variables:
* Your position (Button)
* The opener's position (UTG)
* The opener's raise size (e.g., 2x, 2.5x, 3x)
* The effective stack depth

You can find some of these charts in advanced poker training books or on training sites, but they are often superseded by more powerful tools.

2. GTO Solvers (The "Real" Answer)
The modern, definitive way to study these spots is with GTO (Game Theory Optimal) solvers. These are software applications that have calculated the equilibrium strategy for countless poker scenarios.

They are broken down into two main types:

A. Pre-Solved GTO Training Apps (Most Recommended)

These are user-friendly tools where all the complex calculations have already been done. You simply navigate to the exact scenario you want to study.

* GTO Wizard: This is the industry leader. You can literally set up your exact scenario (e.g., 6-max, 40bb deep, UTG opens 2.5x, it folds to the Button). It will then show you a complete, color-coded chart of what the Button should do with every single hand.

* It shows you which hands to fold.
* It shows you which hands to call.
* It shows you which hands to 3-bet (and what size).
* It shows you which hands to 3-bet shove all-in.

* Odin Poker: Another popular tool, often praised for its mobile interface, that allows you to drill these "vs. Open" spots.

* Preflop GTO / GTO Trainer: Other apps that specialize in preflop solutions.

B. Manual Solvers (The "Under the Hood" Tools)

These are the raw engines that create the solutions. They are more for deep-study and professional use, as you have to set up the scenarios and "run" the solves yourself, which can take time and processing power.

* PioSOLVER (primarily for postflop, but the preflop versions exist)
* GTO+
* Simple Preflop

Summary: What These Tools Study

Your example (UTG open vs. Button) is a classic preflop scenario that is no longer a simple push/fold decision. The correct play depends on variables that basic charts can't handle:

* Effective Stack Depth: At 15bb, you're almost exclusively looking to 3-bet shove or fold. At 40bb, you'll have a calling range, a 3-bet shoving range, and a smaller (non-all-in) 3-betting range. At 100bb, you're almost never 3-bet shoving.

* Opener's Raise Size: You will defend (call or 3-bet) much wider against a 2x min-raise than you will against a 3.5x open.

* Opponent's Range: Solvers assume the UTG player is opening with a GTO-appropriate range.
For the vast majority of players wanting to study, a pre-solved tool like GTO Wizard is the most effective and direct way to get answers to your exact question.

Would you like me to search for some specific examples of "re-shove charts" or find a tutorial on how to use a tool like GTO Wizard to study that spot?

 

[Frogzilla]

My understanding is that most push fold charts assume you are the open raise. Are there any tools for studying cases where someone else has already raised? For example, if UTG raises, and it folds to you on the button.

Snap shove, GTOW, snowie all have this as far as I know

 

[slyninja33]

That's an excellent and very specific question, and you are absolutely correct. Standard "push/fold" charts are for the first-in player (an open-shove).

When you're facing a raise, as in your example (UTG opens, folds to you on the Button), you're in a completely different and more complex situation. You're no longer pushing; you're 3-betting (which could be a 3-bet shove if stacks are short) or calling.

The tools for studying this are more advanced and fall into a few categories.

1. "Re-shove" or "3-Bet Shove" Charts
This is the most direct step up from basic push/fold charts. These static charts are designed for short-stack situations (e.g., 15-30 big blinds) and show you which hands are profitable to re-shove all-in over an opponent's open-raise.

They are far less common than open-shove charts because they depend on more variables:
* Your position (Button)
* The opener's position (UTG)
* The opener's raise size (e.g., 2x, 2.5x, 3x)
* The effective stack depth

You can find some of these charts in advanced poker training books or on training sites, but they are often superseded by more powerful tools.

2. GTO Solvers (The "Real" Answer)
The modern, definitive way to study these spots is with GTO (Game Theory Optimal) solvers. These are software applications that have calculated the equilibrium strategy for countless poker scenarios.

They are broken down into two main types:

A. Pre-Solved GTO Training Apps (Most Recommended)

These are user-friendly tools where all the complex calculations have already been done. You simply navigate to the exact scenario you want to study.

* GTO Wizard: This is the industry leader. You can literally set up your exact scenario (e.g., 6-max, 40bb deep, UTG opens 2.5x, it folds to the Button). It will then show you a complete, color-coded chart of what the Button should do with every single hand.

* It shows you which hands to fold.
* It shows you which hands to call.
* It shows you which hands to 3-bet (and what size).
* It shows you which hands to 3-bet shove all-in.

* Odin Poker: Another popular tool, often praised for its mobile interface, that allows you to drill these "vs. Open" spots.

* Preflop GTO / GTO Trainer: Other apps that specialize in preflop solutions.

B. Manual Solvers (The "Under the Hood" Tools)

These are the raw engines that create the solutions. They are more for deep-study and professional use, as you have to set up the scenarios and "run" the solves yourself, which can take time and processing power.

* PioSOLVER (primarily for postflop, but the preflop versions exist)
* GTO+
* Simple Preflop

Summary: What These Tools Study

Your example (UTG open vs. Button) is a classic preflop scenario that is no longer a simple push/fold decision. The correct play depends on variables that basic charts can't handle:

* Effective Stack Depth: At 15bb, you're almost exclusively looking to 3-bet shove or fold. At 40bb, you'll have a calling range, a 3-bet shoving range, and a smaller (non-all-in) 3-betting range. At 100bb, you're almost never 3-bet shoving.

* Opener's Raise Size: You will defend (call or 3-bet) much wider against a 2x min-raise than you will against a 3.5x open.

* Opponent's Range: Solvers assume the UTG player is opening with a GTO-appropriate range.
For the vast majority of players wanting to study, a pre-solved tool like GTO Wizard is the most effective and direct way to get answers to your exact question.

Would you like me to search for some specific examples of "re-shove charts" or find a tutorial on how to use a tool like GTO Wizard to study that spot?

Thanks for the info! Hm I'm looking at GTO Wizard at least, and it seems that it doesn't allow for me to change the opener's raise size? I only get a 2x option.