TOURNEY: Weird situation - what would you do here? (1 Viewer)

[justsomedude]

I had a weird situation happen at a recent tourney I was playing in...

Local tourney at a casino - small buyin ($150) - 15k starting stacks and I'm sitting with about 25k. A few hours in in I get dealt UTG. Blinds are 500/1000 at this point. I pop it to 2,500, folds to the cutoff who calls, remaining positions fold and we are head's up to the flop.

Flop:

I bet out 3,000, and get insta-called.

Turn:

I check. Cutoff pauses and thinks... finally bets out 5k. I re-raise 10k and am insta-called, and now I'm very worried about two pair or a set.

River:

I check with about 10k behind. Cutoff bets out a goofball 4k bet. I'm a little tilted, mentally think "f*ck it" and verbalize my "all in."

As I go to push my chips in, the cutoff player turns tosses his cards forward as he turns them up. They land halfway between his chips and the community cards, showing, ... he hit his trips on the flop. HOWEVER, he never verbalized a call, or made any other bet indication. I table my AQ, and as I go to stand up a few players start hollering, "whoa whoa whoa - he never called - he mucked!"

I said, "he's got me beat, whatever" - and walked away.

My question is... did I have any play here by the rule book? I realize there's etiquette and technicalities, and a big difference between the two. Was his a technical error, or just an etiquette error by tabling his cards before making a formal call?

I'm curious if I should have done something differently. Please chime in.

 

[abby99]

Look at the dealer and don't speak unless the dealer or the floor asks you a question. Making a ruling is what the vig is for.

 

[krafticus]

Fold pre..
Oops

 

[justsomedude]

Fold pre..
Oops

Seriously. I hate AQoff.

 

[mummel]

I dont know about a casino scenario, but if this was a home game, I would have awarded his trip queens for sure.

 

[chipjoker]

He did not verbally call and showed his hand, I have many people who fold cards face up, and I ask before the other guy shows his cards "Is that a fold? they say yes and the hand is over..
Tough though..

 

[jbutler]

You did nothing wrong. I agree with @abby99 in general that when I'm in a casino it's their job to explain and enforce the rules. However, unless the rules in this room are retarded, your opponent will and should win the pot.

 

[MikesDad]

Without verbalize "fold" and the dealer putting his cards in the muck, then his hand is live and wins the pot

 

[DJ Mack]

As a general comment most of the time I've had or seen issues playing cards it comes down to guys rushing and/or flubbing the formalities at the end of the hand. One guy drops a chip and another quickly tables his hand on the assumption that a call was made thinking he needs to act before the guy can change his mind. Or in this case the villain turns his cards up and Andrew correctly reads them (cards speak, right?) while everyone else is trying to play "gotcha" that it was a fold.

With the exception of starting a new hand in a tournament at the end of a level there's no such thing as in before the buzzer in poker. Those who try to press an advantage by acting mere milliseconds after an opponent farts are bound to be disappointed because more often than not it doesn't work. Not to mention they catch a reputation for douchebaggery. When I find myself in an ambiguous situation I make eye contact with the dealer before acting and I might even take 5-10 seconds just to see what happens. Home games can be a bit of a mixed bag but in a casino environment dealers are almost always on top of the game; one glance and they'll jump in. If you glance at the dealer and he doesn't muck the upturned hand then it's still live. As @abby99 said, that's why you pay them.

 

[DrStrange]

Villain has the second nut and clearly doesn't intend to fold. I would ask him his intentions just in case, but I believe he got over excited and just banged him cards down.

Unless there is a specific rule killing the exposed hand (which would be a bad rule), Villain's hand should be alive until villain says fold or call.

 

[AWenger]

They land halfway between his chips and the community cards, showing, ... he hit his trips on the flop. HOWEVER, he never verbalized a call, or made any other bet indication. I table my AQ

A good rule of thumb is to never act or table your hand until you are sure what the players' action before you is. The dealer should be making sure as well. If you are not sure, ask the dealer. If this happened to me, I would have waited several seconds, and then, if necessary, asked the dealer "what is that?" (I probably wouldn't say is that a fold, or is that a call.)

Let's imagine you actually had 35 for the straight, and table your hand the same way -- I could see some angle-shooting type player with the QQ then proclaim -- 'I folded'. (Although it's probably unlikely that a guy with QQ on that board would even be thinking of angle shooting in this spot.) But just waiting to make sure of the action before you act will help defend against angle shooters.

But the way the hand played out, the pot should be awarded to the QQ hand. It should never be ruled a fold.

 

[upNdown]

I'm the furthest thing from an expert, and I'll take you guys' word that it wasn't a fold, but it certainly wasn't a call either. As far as I'm concerned, if the guy didn't say "call" or push some chips forward, then him tossing his cards face up like that is some kind of an angle shot and he should be punished for it.

 

[jbutler]

I'm the furthest thing from an expert, and I'll take you guys' word that it wasn't a fold, but it certainly wasn't a call either. As far as I'm concerned, if the guy didn't say "call" or push some chips forward, then him tossing his cards face up like that is some kind of an angle shot and he should be punished for it.

It's not anything close to an angle. The guy had the second nuts where the preflop raiser is virtually guaranteed to not hold the nuts.

When something like this happens at a table you're at in a casino (or any game really) the absolute worst thing you can do for the game is to try to point out that the guy who tabled his hand did anything wrong at all. The last thing the world needs is more rules nits, much more so when the rules nits don't know the rules.

 

[upNdown]

I dunno. I don't think I'm being a nit to expect somebody to actually call an all in.

 

[jbutler]

I dunno. I don't think I'm being a nit to expect somebody to actually call an all in.

You are. His action and the strength of his hand clearly indicated a call.

Would you feel the same if he had turned over 53 for the nuts?

 

[bentax1978]

I dunno. I don't think I'm being a nit to expect somebody to actually call an all in.

What do you think is the (vastly) more likely scenario in this situation.

(1) The guy with the QQ got excited that he was about to win a huge pot and tabled his hand without saying call first

or

(2) The guy with the QQ flipped it over to try and angle shoot on the 1 in 10,000 chance OP had 35.


Here's a hint, it's not the second one.








edit: Don't get me wrong, I'm all for rules and requiring people to follow them. However, I think this particular situation is pretty clear in terms of intentions and what should have been an easy ruling.

 

[upNdown]

edit: Don't get me wrong, I'm all for rules and requiring people to follow them. However, I think this particular situation is pretty clear in terms of intentions and what should have been an easy ruling.

Here's my problem with that. Yes, in this case, it's clear what the intentions were. But you're still putting the dealer in a position where he has to make a judgement call, albeit an easy obvious one. We have rules to keep humans from having to make judgement calls.
I guess I'm a nit.

 

[bentax1978]

Here's my problem with that. Yes, in this case, it's clear what the intentions were. But you're still putting the dealer in a position where he has to make a judgement call, albeit an easy obvious one. We have rules to keep humans from having to make judgement calls.
I guess I'm a nit.

I get it. But I also believe that ruling otherwise in a case like this would be more wrong than strict adhesion to a rule designed to prevent something that is clearly not occurring in this case.

Yes, that does require humans to make a judgement call, and I'm generally ok with that.

 

[Hot Nuts]

I didn't hear Chan say call.

 

[jbutler]

I didn't hear Chan say call.

Based on how devastated Eric was at that loss I would love to see you tweet him that video with the question whether since Johnny didn't officially call if Eric has considered petitioning to be retroactive champion.

 

[bentax1978]

Based on how devastated Eric was at that loss I would love to see you tweet him that video with the question whether since Johnny didn't officially call if Eric has considered petitioning to be retroactive champion.

Actually, he did.

Eric Seidel seeks clarification on the last hand of the 1988 WSOP main event.

 

[jbutler]

Actually, he did.

Eric Seidel seeks clarification on the last hand of the 1988 WSOP main event.

Oh yeah - damn I totally forgot about that.

 

[upNdown]

Look, I'd honestly be fine with either outcome; I'd just want to get on to the next hand.
But as long as we're discussing it, let's discuss it.
Chan's move there was one fluid motion of turning his cards over AND shoving his chips in. Seems a little different from what was described above.

 

[jbutler]

Look, I'd honestly be fine with either outcome;

This is the worst possible position you've stated yet. It would be a travesty for the QQ hand to be ruled dead in this scenario.

 

[justsomedude]

Look, I'd honestly be fine with either outcome; I'd just want to get on to the next hand.
But as long as we're discussing it, let's discuss it.
Chan's move there was one fluid motion of turning his cards over AND shoving his chips in. Seems a little different from what was described above.

In fairness to @upNdown, he is correct here. In my situation villain never touched his chips... just tabled his cards and stared at me with his hands clasped in front of him.

 

[bergs]

His cards landed face up halfway and not touching the muck, and he has the 2nd nuts. I'm seen some pretty horrible floor rulings but this would be the worst by far if they ruled his hand dead. 95% of floors are going to rule this a call and the other 5% are going to ask villain if he's folding or calling and after he says call 100% of the time, they'll assess villain a 1 round penalty for exposing his hand. Zero percent chance this is ever a fold.

 

[abby99]

Every player should ask if uncertain about the other player's action. I understand why we might feel that asking the other player to clarify his intention might give away something about our hand, but there's no harm in waiting a few seconds and then looking at the dealer and asking "What's his action?"

I hate it when pots are awarded to a player with the losing hand just because of a technicality. Bottom line: Ask. Don't assume, don't jump the gun.

@justsomedude: IMO you did the right and honorable thing. May it come back to you a hundredfold.

 

[GoStumpy]

NO chance that you guys just didn't hear him say call?

 

[courage]

His cards landed face up halfway and not touching the muck, and he has the 2nd nuts. I'm seen some pretty horrible floor rulings but this would be the worst by far if they ruled his hand dead. 95% of floors are going to rule this a call and the other 5% are going to ask villain if he's folding or calling and after he says call 100% of the time, they'll assess villain a 1 round penalty for exposing his hand. Zero percent chance this is ever a fold.

^^agree. Can't see this going any other way.

 

[justsomedude]

NO chance that you guys just didn't hear him say call?

Possible, but I was looking right at him. Don't think I would have missed that. And he was a few positions away, so I had a clear view of him from across the table (UTG vs. cutoff).