Have Chinese cards mold replica sets gone too far? (7 Viewers)

[aggie]

I totally get the allure of buying cheap, fake versions of a real thing, but it seems more and more “replica” posts show up daily. Is this good for poker chip collecting in general? Is it good for PCF?

I remember thinking some of the first sets were pretty cool, but my opinion has since shifted. For me, it‘s akin to selling (and showcasing!) Fauxlexes on The Rolex Forum. Like, I do get it, but should we be promoting it? And what’s next, fake Paulson stamps?

Am I alone here? I’m definitely open to opposing perspectives.

 

[Azalyer]

I'm new to all this but how do you define a "real" poker chip when as far as I can tell it's all preference?

If in the next 2 weeks the majority of the community switched to "preffering" cards mold etc, would that mean they become "real" and the clay chips are now fake?

Although I realise now after typing this you may be talking about exact replicas of bellagio chips or whatever which is entirely different. Nevermind.

 

[aggie]

I'm new to all this but how do you define a "real" poker chip when as far as I can tell it's all preference?

If in the next 2 weeks the majority of the community switched to "preffering" cards mold etc, would that mean they become "real" and the clay chips are now fake?

Although I realise now after typing this you may be talking about exact replicas of bellagio chips or whatever which is entirely different. Nevermind.

Yes, the latter. I see many valuable, creative uses of cards mold chips. Just addressing casino replicas primarily.

I’ll add that I don’t hold anything against anyone for pursuing them. I’m also likely (clearly?) in the minority here, but felt it was worthy of discussion.

 

[Bill_Man618]

I'm new to all this but how do you define a "real" poker chip when as far as I can tell it's all preference?

If in the next 2 weeks the majority of the community switched to "preffering" cards mold etc, would that mean they become "real" and the clay chips are now fake?

Although I realise now after typing this you may be talking about exact replicas of bellagio chips or whatever which is entirely different. Nevermind.

Yeah he’s referring to people making exact replicas of Paulson chips. I think that it’s a really good way for people to have playable sets of chips that either don’t exist in playable quantities or they cost to much. I have over 1k cards mold chips and am selling them all. I found that they quickly became slippery and stacked poorly.

My opinions on the original comment is that it’s kinda sketchy to be ripping off designs like that. To someone who’s a regular on the forum it might seem like a trivial task to spot the fake. But to any of my friends or family it would be extremely difficult. If the sets stay in the community and the sellers state that they are cards mold then it’s fine. It’s when you start selling on eBay and elsewhere where you can cross the line if you aren’t saying they are cards mold replicas.

 

[aggie]

Yeah he’s referring to people making exact replicas of Paulson chips. I think that it’s a really good way for people to have playable sets of chips that either don’t exist in playable quantities or they cost to much. I have over 1k cards mold chips and am selling them all. I found that they quickly became slippery and stacked poorly.

My opinions on the original comment is that it’s kinda sketchy to be ripping off designs like that. To someone who’s a regular on the forum it might seem like a trivial task to spot the fake. But to any of my friends or family it would be extremely difficult. If the sets stay in the community and the sellers state that they are cards mold then it’s fine. It’s when you start selling on eBay and elsewhere where you can cross the line if you aren’t saying they are cards mold replicas.

Definitely gray lines.

I also personally appreciate the creativity that goes into some of these sets, which complicates matters further in my own mind (e.g., the Bellagio set or the PNY Tourney set).

 

[jpike16]

So I am pretty involved in the fountain pen community ( yes, it’s a thing lol) and it is pretty common practice for Chinese knockoffs of expensive pens to be produced. However, these cheaper pens are rarely promoted openly by the pen community. They certainly have ppl within the community who purchase the knockoffs, but it is kind of frowned upon overall. Just a perspective from another hobby.

 

[BearMetal]

I think the big difference is that they're still making high quality Rolex's and Fountain Pens ... So the Chinese replicas are knockoffs being sold as the originals, right?

In the case of the CM chips, they are either tributes (like Chateau Picard) or just direct copies (BTP) being a fun, hobby set. They're not trying to trick anyone. They're just there to get some fun artwork/theme/colors into the hands of the people.

I'm OK with it. I have a playable Outpost set; I love my Outpost chips. If someone made an Outpost CM set, I wouldn't be upset - more people to love and enjoy a tribute to the history. But mine are real, and nothing can diminish that.

 

[Moxie Mike]

I totally get the allure of buying cheap, fake versions of a real thing, but it seems more and more “replica” posts show up daily. Is this good for poker chip collecting in general? Is it good for PCF?

Yes this is a good thing.

Think of it this way: it fills a gap in the market. Previously, what was the best chip you could get for ~.40 apiece? NEXGEN? Some china clay junk?

These are IMO an objectively better product at the same price point. And they're completely customizable!

Another way to look at it is that it serves as a viable alternative to the real thing. This industry/hobby suffers from scarcity... and the more hobbyists that comes into this space the more it's going to drive prices up on the authentic pieces. Just look at the last 2 years. But if the new people are willing to buy the replicas at a fraction of the cost, it doesn't have the inflationary effect it would normally have if those same buyers were trying to acquire the real thing.

Now if there's one group of people who might take issue with it, it's stateside manufacturers like ABC. Gene has a great service (and IMO a superior product to the Chinese ceramics), but at ~$1 apiece he probably can't compete on price.

I remember thinking some of the first sets were pretty cool, but my opinion has since shifted. For me, it‘s akin to selling (and showcasing!) Fauxlexes on The Rolex Forum. Like, I do get it, but should we be promoting it? And what’s next, fake Paulson stamps?

I think there's a significant distinction between 'fauxlexes', which are difficult to tell from the real thing (at first glance anyhow - and especially for a lay person)... and ceramic replica chips. No one is going to mistake a tribute Bellagio chip for the real thing. So for your average home-gamer, there's no prestige in owning the replicas but that's a low priority.

 

[allforcharity]

I think the point of making custom chips is to show off some creativity and personalize a set. An exact copy of an inlay design and colour/spot scheme does neither.

Sooner or later, someone will try a bait and switch with these on some sale platform. Advertise Paulson, get a cheap ceramic. What's to stop someone creating a mold that replicates a THC?

 

[BearMetal]

What's to stop someone creating a mold that replicates a THC?

Nothing; it's probably going to happen. But I don't think that anyone is going to mistake a Tina ceramic for a real Paulson. Maybe that is crossing a line ... after all, the CM chips have cards all over them, so that helps set them apart from the originals.

 

[allforcharity]

Nothing; it's probably going to happen. But I don't think that anyone is going to mistake a Tina ceramic for a real Paulson. Maybe that is crossing a line ... after all, the CM chips have cards all over them, so that helps set them apart from the originals.

You won't mistake it when it's in hand, but on a screenshot? On an advertising banner? In a Classified ad?

 

[Josh Kifer]

Nothing; it's probably going to happen. But I don't think that anyone is going to mistake a Tina ceramic for a real Paulson. Maybe that is crossing a line ... after all, the CM chips have cards all over them, so that helps set them apart from the originals.

And that's the line that once it's crossed, I'm out on CCs.

 

[upNdown]

I’ve ranted about this often.
I’m pretty sure copying real chips is some form of theft.
And future purchasers may think they’re buying authentic chips if they’re uneducated.
And I’ll get petty - when somebody says “I felted the Arias tonight” I’ll scroll down, excited to see Aria chips and I’ll be disappointed to see knockoffs. What other people play with absolutely shouldn’t annoy me, but I’m being honest.

I have nothing against the chips themselves. I think it’s great that so many people can have cool chips at affordable prices. But a ceramic chip is almost literally a blank canvas - design something coo! Stop making copies!

There used to be a time where chippers would design tribute sets - similar spot patterns and fonts, but changed enough to make it personal. Those days are gone. Now people just make exact copies.

 

[Coyote]

I would never replicate.
I would use the cheap services of that vendor only for original purposes, such as using a mold not offered any more by others, i.e. by CPC
@JeepologyOffroad

 

[Moxie Mike]

I think the point of making custom chips is to show off some creativity and personalize a set. An exact copy of an inlay design and colour/spot scheme does neither.

Sooner or later, someone will try a bait and switch with these on some sale platform. Advertise Paulson, get a cheap ceramic. What's to stop someone creating a mold that replicates a THC?

Almost everything gets knocked off and fraudulently misrepresented in marketplaces. Look at designer handbags or sports cards or CDs or famous pieces of art. Hell, even the inventor of the Bug a Salt had to deal with Chinese knockoffs infringing on his patent. That doesn't make it right but it's the nature of many consumer products where the authentic version is prohibitively expensive.

Besides, the existence of replicas and knock-offs doesn't make the value of an original Van Gogh go down does it?

A H&C mold? That'd be sweet!

 

[aggie]

I’ve ranted about this often.
I’m pretty sure copying real chips is some form of theft.
And future purchasers may think they’re buying authentic chips if they’re uneducated.
And I’ll get petty - when somebody says “I felted the Arias tonight” I’ll scroll down, excited to see Aria chips and I’ll be disappointed to see knockoffs. What other people play with absolutely shouldn’t annoy me, but I’m being honest.

I have nothing against the chips themselves. I think it’s great that so many people can have cool chips at affordable prices. But a ceramic chip is almost literally a blank canvas - design something coo! Stop making copies!

There used to be a time where chippers would design tribute sets - similar spot patterns and fonts, but changed enough to make it personal. Those days are gone. Now people just make exact copies.

“It shouldn’t bother me but it does” sums up my feelings almost precisely.

Besides, the existence of replicas and knock-offs doesn't make the value of an original Van Gogh go down does it?

Not necessarily, but should the replicas be showcased and praised on art forums?

 

[Rieguy]

Tina's current chips (card molds/no molds/hybrids) are clearly replicas to anyone who does a minute of research, but once the line gets further blurred with the TinaHC Molds expected to hit soon, then I think we could definitely hit the "too far" point. This is especially true as to live and past casino chips, with the former likely already presenting some issue on the current molds.

In terms of customs, others' art with their permission, and clear replicas on current molds (sans live chips), I'm okay with it. Between affordability and demand, which far exceeds supply on highly desirable chips, this is the only doable option for a large contingent of people. They're a nice option for their price. I have a tribute set on Card Molds myself; I like that the mold is unique to replicas/customs and immediately indicates they're not the real thing. Again, I'm not here to gate-keep Tina chips, but I do think the intentionally blurring the line with copying Paulson molds as close as possible is a slippery slope and could present some issues. We will almost certainly find out though, for better or worse.

 

[Coyote]

I would never replicate.
I would use the cheap services of that vendor only for original purposes, such as using a mold not offered any more by others, i.e. by CPC
@JeepologyOffroad

Replying to myself just to move forward from the Devil's post (#6,666)

 

[grebe]

As Paulson prices continue to rise to absurd levels, I feel that cards mold chips are fantastic for people that love chips, and putting them in play. The only thing this hurts are people that are collecting for the sole sake of having something that nobody else has, or as an investment.

Going too far? Paulson sets going for $15/chip. To me, that's going too far.

 

[upNdown]

Anybody remember when that guy made Game of Thrones chips? He actually contacted George R R Martin and got his permission to make a set of chips. I think he got his permission for a group buy too, right?
That’s how things were when I first came to this forum. People respected the rights and property of others. And if they didn’t, they certainly didn’t flaunt it all over the forum. But it’s been like a complete 180 in just a few short years.

 

[Coyote]

As Paulson prices continue to rise to absurd levels, I feel that cards mold chips are fantastic for people that love chips, and putting them in play. The only thing this hurts are people that are collecting for the sole sake of having something that nobody else has, or as an investment.

Going too far? Paulson sets going for $15/chip. To me, that's going too far.

True, but why make an exact copy of existing Paulson or CPC chips?

 

[aggie]

As Paulson prices continue to rise to absurd levels, I feel that cards mold chips are fantastic for people that love chips, and putting them in play. The only thing this hurts are people that are collecting for the sole sake of having something that nobody else has, or as an investment.

Going too far? Paulson sets going for $15/chip. To me, that's going too far.

Same goes for Rolexes? Or Louis Vuitton? Or famous art? It’s the collectors’ faults?

Bad take IMHO.

 

[Marius L]

I think it's good for the hobby that there are decent chips available at a more reasonable price point than the high end stuff. And I believe the Carda molds are far enough away from the real chips they mimic, that it's not an issue with counterfeits and fakes. However I agree the TinaHC mold (if close to the real THC mold) is probably going too far. And while the old timers on PCF will easily tell them apart from the real deal, they could make some trouble in eBay ads, or for people without the specific insight that TinaHC mold "fakes" is a thing.

 

[Moxie Mike]

I’m pretty sure copying real chips is some form of theft.

Theft of what from whom? The chips at Aria aren't a consumer product. You can harvest a set from there if you want to go to the trouble and considerable expense, but what's the harm having replicas made if they're for personal use?

And future purchasers may think they’re buying authentic chips if they’re uneducated.

I think that a fair amount of responsibility falls on the consumer, doesn't it? If something is being advertised as cheaper than it should be, that should raise red flags. If a person doesn't educate themselves and gets ripped off as a result, that's at least partially on them.

An quick example can be found on eBay. Search 'left handed guitar' and you'll find all sorts of Chinese guitars that mimic the designs of famous guitars from Fender, Gibson, etc. In fact, they're colloquially known as 'Chibsons'.

So if a person buys a guitar for $300 thinking they just got a great deal on a $4000 product, it may sound cold but I don't have a lot of sympathy for them.

This is different of course from being lied to - if a product is completely misrepresented that's a different argument.

 

[ChipEnvy]

I am fine with it. They are not for me at this point but if people want to buy those instead of the chip sets I want then knock yourself out. This hobby has been cost prohibitive for quite some time now and if this can drive the demand down for the quality of chips I am into then by all means Tina, keep that machine pumping out chips 24 hours a day.

I mean even TCR black friday sale has single chips sold in quantity for $20... if you buy 1980 other chips with them! That's not even the crazy part. People will sell those 20 chips to pay for the majority of the other 1980 chips.

So yeah... If these looney tunes prices really are a Supply/Demand thing, rather than people having more money than sense thing, and the cards mold chips help bring the demand down even a bit, then that's a win as far as I'm concerned.

 

[upNdown]

Theft of what from whom? The chips at Aria aren't a consumer product. You can harvest a set from there if you want to go to the trouble and considerable expense, but what's the harm having replicas made if they're for personal use?

Intellectual property I guess? Aria might not sell chips, but they certainly sell hats and shirts and stuff with their logo on it. I mean, take that Aria copy design to BroPoker and do you think they’ll print it on chips?
What’s the harm? Maybe none, but that doesn’t make it legal. Listen, people can do what they want and I’m not going to lecture them about it - none of my business. But if we’re giving opinions on it, there’s mine.

 

[grebe]

Same goes for Rolexes? Or Louis Vuitton? Or famous art? It’s the collectors’ faults?

Bad take IMHO.

I guess we just see things differently. To me, things are utilitarian. When they are no longer utilitarian, my interest wanes. Tina chips make sets that are outside of most people's budgets back in....which brings the U value back down in to play for those people that were priced out.

You asked if things were going "too far" with the cards molds. Nope, these are filling a need. Maybe my feeling on the current chip prices came thru a bit harshly to collectors....not intended. I am not a collector, and any chip that I ever buy will be for in game use. Therefore, buying a cool looking set that I would never even consider owning if not for these sets is very appealing.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Not necessarily, but should the replicas be showcased and praised on art forums?

The way I look at it is this:

If I went on here and said 'look at my '98 Bellagio set' and it turned out to be a CM replica, people would think I was a tool. So I don't think it's really much of an issue.

 

[aggie]

The way I look at it is this:

If I went on here and said 'look at my '98 Bellagio set' and it turned out to be a CM replica, people would think I was a tool. So I don't think it's really much of an issue.

So basically it’s ok to rip something off as long as most people should know the difference according to you? Interesting take.

 

[Moxie Mike]

Intellectual property I guess? Aria might not sell chips, but they certainly sell hats and shirts and stuff with their logo on it. I mean, take that Aria copy design to BroPoker and do you think they’ll print it on chips?
What’s the harm? Maybe none, but that doesn’t make it legal. Listen, people can do what they want and I’m not going to lecture them about it - none of my business. But if we’re giving opinions on it, there’s mine.

There's an argument to be made that replica chips hurt Aria's brand. I don't think the IP part matters from a legal standpoint... my understanding is that you can use trademarked items in design as long as it's for personal use. I think this is considered to be 'fair use'.

It's against ABC's policy to print items like that. It probably opens THEM up to some type of liability.