Let's talk about buying someone else's customs (1 Viewer)

[ssanel54]

Regarding Sanels comment about royalties for collector contributions, well, we all do this for love and fun right? With regards to artists, they should charge based on level of effort. The royalties thing is just a cluster fk waiting to happen if it applied to custom chipping. Sales would just get more private.

Obviously Im not suggesting royalties be paid to those from the community who contribute. I just think its a little gross that there was extensive collaboration with the the community to create these chips, and then once they are created and elected to the HOF, the owner is now looking to auction the design back into the same community to the highest bidder. It is unclear if the Artist will be receiving any a portion of any profits.

I guess what I don't understand is why you can't just make your own Monopoly set. It's not like @AfterTheFact owns the intellectual rights to monopoly. Why can't you just make your own? Change the artwork a little to something you like even better?

I guess I am not understanding the finer points of this discussion. If I want to make a 4-putt poker set (which is more in line with my golf game anyway), and change the logo a smidge (which is already obviously based on Dunes), what is the hold up? Can't I do this? How far removed from 3-putt poker does it need to be, really?

I don't think I understand the rules around customs and intellectual property. Would love to be enlightened, which I am sure I am about to be

I think your hitting hitting the nail on the head. I think many people may confuse Intellectual property with the idea of putting a concept onto an inlay

 

[detroitdad]

Obviously Im not suggesting royalties be paid to those from the community who contribute. I just think its a little gross that there was extensive collaboration with the the community to create these chips, and then once they are created and elected to the HOF, the owner is now looking to auction the design back into the same community to the highest bidder. It is unclear if the Artist will be receiving any a portion of any profits.



I think your hitting hitting the nail on the head. I think many people may confuse Intellectual property with the idea of putting a concept onto an inlay

I understand. Doesn't mean it wouldn't feel a little dirty to take a members design, tweak it, and call it mine.

 

[ssanel54]

I understand. Doesn't mean it wouldn't feel a little dirty to take a members design, tweak it, and call it mine.

I think thats the grey area. If you take a totally original design and tweak it slightly without seeking any permission then its pretty weak. However, if you tweak a design that someone else tweaked slightly from a common image or theme to put it on a poker chip, then should there really be any concern if someone else does the same?

 

[liftapint]

I understand. Doesn't mean it wouldn't feel a little dirty to take a members design, tweak it, and call it mine.

I guess I don't see it as "call it mine". I see it as "why can't I have a monopoly-related set too", if that is something that really resonated with me personally (it doesn't for me, but other things do).

 

[mipevi]

Have bought and sold other people's custom sets several times. Either got them at a discounted price, or they had some characteristic that wasn't otherwise available. To me they are every bit as special as real casino chips, maybe even more so. And when bought from the original owner I always got the rights to use the artwork as well.

My current sets that originally were someone else's personal customs shown below. :

 

[JFCJ]

I miss those Atlantic City Boardwalks...

 

[Trihonda]

Damnnn whose set is this?

Long standing fave of mine too... However, I think Jeff has enough to spare.

Owner is none other than Chip Meetup Host extraordinaire, @Jeff

Check out his website about the King's Club set... Simply stunning!

JEFF's Chip Website

Attending the WCB in July is one way to guarantee a chance to play with them

 

[jbutler]

@mipevi nice pick up of @imthatguy's Blind Pigs. That is a fantastic set. Didn't know they'd escaped over the pond.

 

[mipevi]

@mipevi nice pick up of @imthatguy's Blind Pigs. That is a fantastic set. Didn't know they'd escaped over the pond.

Yeah my buddy JJ83 from the blue wall got them to Finland, so I'm the third owner. I don't have the whole original set, but plenty for a single table. (y) :thumbsup:

 

[Mr. Cheese]

Unless the artist or owner has applied for a patent, copyright, etc as I understand it (maybe I'm wrong so apologies if that's the case) basically any design could be copied even if it wasn't truly tweaked or modified. What little research I just did it appears that if its not a protected image (patented or copyrighted) its free game as fair use.

I'm not advocating copying someone elses design btw but many have in the past. From personal experience unless you are coming up with a money making product/design to bring to market its not going to be worth going through the effort and expense of getting your design copyrighted or patented.

For me personally one of the reasons to go custom was to bring my own ideas to fruition, not someone else s.

 

[CraigT78]

What little research I just did it appears that if its not a protected image (patented or copyrighted) its free game as fair use..

This link has some great information on copyrights. Under copyright laws, as soon as a work is created it is protected. (At least in photography, however you still have to register after the fact)

http://www.aiga.org/copyright-basics-for-graphic-designers/

 

[CdnBeerLover]

Unless the artist or owner has applied for a patent, copyright, etc as I understand it (maybe I'm wrong so apologies if that's the case) basically any design could be copied even if it wasn't truly tweaked or modified. What little research I just did it appears that if its not a protected image (patented or copyrighted) its free game as fair use.

I'm not advocating copying someone elses design btw but many have in the past. From personal experience unless you are coming up with a money making product/design to bring to market its not going to be worth going through the effort and expense of getting your design copyrighted or patented.

For me personally one of the reasons to go custom was to bring my own ideas to fruition, not someone else s.

I don't have a whole lot of knowledge about copyright in various countries, but based on my limited understanding of US and Canada's laws
- The author does not have to apply for copyright. The author automatically has the copyright upon creation.(Canadian source: link)
- Fair use is rather limited in Canada. You either have to attribute the original source as part of a critique/review, or it must be specifically for news reporting, research, education, parody, or satire. (link)
- Canada and US laws may differ on who owns the copyrights if it's not explicitly stated. For example, the concept of "work for hire" does not exist in Canadian copyright laws.
(source)

Would I buy someone else's customs? Yes, if it was a design that I really liked and desired. But not for more than I would pay for my own custom set.

 

[spikeithard]

usually sometimes always a custom set is as special or more special than a casino set. I agree Mipevi

 

[Mr. Cheese]

Some interesting information in that link Craig. As I said I wasn't sure on what I had found so far but that article really sums things up nicely. Sounds like one of the most important things is for the designer to register the copyrighted design early.

That being said for me personally it won't ever be an issue because I don't plan to copy anyone's work and if I really loved a design I'd still tweak it enough and make it my own so I didn't have to worry about it being an exact replica.

 

[Chicken Rob]

There are 2 issues as far as I'm concerned: fair use and douche baggery.

I'm not sure how fair use works for real, but I am under the impression that if you're using an image for personal, non-commercial use, you are either on ok ground, or at least it would cost more to sue you than they could collect in damages.

As far as douchey behavior goes, copying someone's custom set without consent, while being part of the community, I think crosses a line of good taste.

Creating your own dunes knock off, or monopoly set is fair game in my opinion.

 

[spikeithard]

Same colors and spots but they are 'Rodeo Drive' . ya not cool

 

[stocky]

I think the Dr stated it best.

It will come down to how motivated the seller is and how keen the buyer is and how much they view the artwork is worth.

No one knows what the artwork cost originally except two people. J5s fees are usually kept quiet. Those who have worked with him will all agree the costs are extremely reasonable.

Even though this is a separate thread, I believe all this will do is hurt the sellers chances of finding a buyer even more. But it is a great discussion.

 

[pltrgyst]

This link has some great information on copyrights. Under copyright laws, as soon as a work is created it is protected. (At least in photography, however you still have to register after the fact)

Not true in the US. The only practical effect of registration is that copyright must be registered in order to seek monetary damages.

The other concern is the trademark issue. It doesn't have to be a detailed copy in order to be in violation of a trademarked design -- it only has to be sufficiently similar to create a "likelihood of confusion."

 

[BGinGA]

I think thats the grey area. If you take a totally original design and tweak it slightly without seeking any permission then its pretty weak. However, if you tweak a design that someone else tweaked slightly from a common image or theme to put it on a poker chip, then should there really be any concern if someone else does the same?

I don't have the answer to your question, but I do remember the uproar when somebody used the similar (and commonly available) cartoonish cat graphics to create a set that was similar to toby's original Black Cat set. That was pretty much a tweak of a tweak, but some folks were screaming bloody murder.

For me personally one of the reasons to go custom was to bring my own ideas to fruition, not someone else s.

I find this hilarious, since I can't find your name in the Gangster Squad credits anywhere......lol

 

[stocky]

I find this hilarious, since I can't find your name in the Gangster Squad credits anywhere......lol

My set was totally original. And if anyone named George tells you otherwise he is a fucking liar.

 

[liftapint]

There are 2 issues as far as I'm concerned: fair use and douche baggery.

...

Creating your own dunes knock off, or monopoly set is fair game in my opinion.

FWIW, I have no plans of douche baggery. As much as I love a couple of the custom sets, if they want them to be unique, so be it. I think I can survive with just collecting casino sets. I will find a way to live with this.

 

[Mr. Cheese]

I don't have the answer to your question, but I do remember the uproar when somebody used the similar (and commonly available) cartoonish cat graphics to create a set that was similar to toby's original Black Cat set. That was pretty much a tweak of a tweak, but some folks were screaming bloody murder.



I find this hilarious, since I can't find your name in the Gangster Squad credits anywhere......lol

Hey now . Gangster Squad came out in 2013 and my original idea was 2012 when I started hosting poker again . The CPC's are just V3 of the Gangster Squad!

 

[manamongkids]

Even though this is a separate thread, I believe all this will do is hurt the sellers chances of finding a buyer even more. But it is a great discussion.

To each their own, I started the discussion and purposely never mentioned the obvious set as to not deliberately cause anything hurtful to a sale.

 

[liftapint]

To each their own, I started the discussion and purposely never mentioned the obvious set as to not deliberately cause anything hurtful to a sale.

I think it is a very relevant topic, with more and more custom sets being made, and hitting the market recently.

 

[ohio3302016]

The set I recently ordered from CPC was designed (partially) with the idea of possibly selling them sometime down the road. Certainly not for a profit and not even for current CPC prices. But I wanted to be able to recoup some of my money if ever I decided to sell them.

 

[jbutler]

I don't have the answer to your question, but I do remember the uproar when somebody used the similar (and commonly available) cartoonish cat graphics to create a set that was similar to toby's original Black Cat set. That was pretty much a tweak of a tweak, but some folks were screaming bloody murder.

Two separate versions of this controversy actually. One beginning here and another beginning here in the old Black Cat Club thread on CT. Both interesting in their own right imo.

 

[stocky]

To each their own, I started the discussion and purposely never mentioned the obvious set as to not deliberately cause anything hurtful to a sale.

Don't get me wrong I don't think you've done anything wrong by posting the thread. I completely agree with it actually.

 

[nyczalex]

I personally would be willing to pay extra 10-15% if its new condition.. Most people will normally sell for a discount or what they paid for just to get rid of it which is why they put it up for sale.. Don't know why people would try to flip for it and take others money but then again, its their chips, they can ask and do whatever they want from it

 

[12thMan]

usually sometimes always a custom set is as special or more special than a casino set. I agree Mipevi

I would agree with you if you are talking about the original owner or a case where the buyer knew the owner/designer personally and had some sort of a connection. Otherwise the casino set is exactly the same as a random custom set that I don't have a strong like for or a connection with no matter what it meant to the original owner.

In my perfect world my order of "want to own" would be:

-CPC Custom/Holy Grail casino set
-Mint casino set
-Good condition casino set/Mint CPC OPC
-All but the most roached out Paulsons/TRKs/BCCs etc, love me some clay
-Custom China Clays/used CPC OPC that I was just kind of "meh" on

Something like that anyway... There are a few OPCs (Other Peoples Customs) that I would love to own and they would probably be up there between a mint casino set and a good condition casino set depending on the price I was paying for them


You down with OPC? No, no, not meeeeee.....

 

[pltrgyst]

I don't see any practical difference between buying someone else's custom set and buying, say, group buy chips or home market Paulsons -- except that the custom set is likely to be more unique and generally harder to add onto.

I have at least three other's custom sets -- ASMs, Paulsons, and Chipcos -- and enjoy them all, probably more than my casino sets.

My only personal custom set is my Busted Flush set, which I could probably sell to another Travis McGee / John D.MacDonald fan, with no problem.

If you like 'em and they're worth the price to you, buy 'em. If not, don't.

But if I do get around top buying a spectacular set of clay customs that I don't do the graphics for myself, it will only be with a "work for hire" agreement. No offense intended to any of the resident designers, but IMO, anyone who does otherwise is foolish, as they have no guarantee their customs will remain unique. Indeed, absent a written agreement, if push comes to shove, they have no rights to their own contributed design elements.

And dog knows the lawyers would have a field day trying to figure out who owns what in the collaborative efforts conducted here and on CT. Let's hope no case ever comes to that.