split spots on Diamond Square mold from CPC? (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Rhodeman77
- Start date
The plot thickens. The spots, on the other hand....
rebels9999
High Hand
This is making me nervous I was designing my order and now I think I might hold up and wait to see if they get this problem identified. I get why this doesn’t matter to some people but I would avoid colors or patterns if I knew it had a risk. I hope they make this right for you.
LinkyBabe
Flush
I had the same problem 3.5 years ago with my Main Event of Poker customs, although I didn't take any pictures of it specifically. The constants I noticed with my set were:
Not one of my PoCo After Dark chips had this effect and they were mostly weighted bases with unweighted spots.
This has been a known issue. I don't know that it's explained on CPC's site but it has been discussed in other threads before. I remember reading about it when @Perthmike received his Motswari Lodge hundos. I was also concerned when I submitted my add-on order to my PAD set with a new bright white chip and weighted 1/8 spots and asked David if I should switch it to regular white instead. He couldn't give me any assurances that it wouldn't happen but I ordered anyway as there's only 40 of them... fingers crossed.
- the use of unweighted base colours with weighted spot colours; and
- the use of weighted spot colors next to unweighted spot colours on an unweighted base colour.
Not one of my PoCo After Dark chips had this effect and they were mostly weighted bases with unweighted spots.
This has been a known issue. I don't know that it's explained on CPC's site but it has been discussed in other threads before. I remember reading about it when @Perthmike received his Motswari Lodge hundos. I was also concerned when I submitted my add-on order to my PAD set with a new bright white chip and weighted 1/8 spots and asked David if I should switch it to regular white instead. He couldn't give me any assurances that it wouldn't happen but I ordered anyway as there's only 40 of them... fingers crossed.
Nice to know. Luckily I'm planning on weighted base colours with only occasional unweighted (along with weighted) spots.
Forgot to put these in the right thread. Done a @LinkyBabe in reverse!
These are he split spots from my EC $1s. 24ish/200
These are he split spots from my EC $1s. 24ish/200
Attachments
One Eyed Dollar
Flush
I've been thinking about the process behind this, and the photos that @72o posted in the mail thread reminded me of this thread again. I've copied them here for reference.
So it looks like the shape of the mold holds the top and bottom of the edge spots in place, but then sometimes the base color gets squeezed out in between them and through the gap in the middle. It seems to be most pronounced when the colors have very different melting temperatures, or maybe they have different viscosities when they melt? I wonder if it can be mitigated at all by making the base color section a little thinner before compression so there isn't as much excess material to press out and cause splits, but maybe then it could create gaps where it doesn't fill the mold completely. Also, are the heat and compression applied at the same time, or is the whole chip heated up to the final temp so all the clay is soft and then the pressure is raised? I'm just spitballing because I have no idea how their machinery works.
So it looks like the shape of the mold holds the top and bottom of the edge spots in place, but then sometimes the base color gets squeezed out in between them and through the gap in the middle. It seems to be most pronounced when the colors have very different melting temperatures, or maybe they have different viscosities when they melt? I wonder if it can be mitigated at all by making the base color section a little thinner before compression so there isn't as much excess material to press out and cause splits, but maybe then it could create gaps where it doesn't fill the mold completely. Also, are the heat and compression applied at the same time, or is the whole chip heated up to the final temp so all the clay is soft and then the pressure is raised? I'm just spitballing because I have no idea how their machinery works.
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Seems like splitting is more likely when there is too much clay in the mold before pressing
LinkyBabe
Flush
Here's a great post from David with respect to the difficulties in working with spots and the different temperatures needed for each colour:
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/cpc-general-discussion-thread.3879/post-15720
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/cpc-general-discussion-thread.3879/post-15720
Hmm. Personally, I am not interested in hearing how “difficult” a craft is. The reason you’re able to charge thousands of dollars is because it’s difficult. This thread completely baffles and upsets me. If this can’t be fixed then CPC shouldn’t be making chips and charging as much as they are until it’s fixed. Personal opinion.
If my chips showed up with split spots like I’m seeing in this thread, that I spent $3k on, and waited over a year for, I’d be losing my sh*t.
If my chips showed up with split spots like I’m seeing in this thread, that I spent $3k on, and waited over a year for, I’d be losing my sh*t.
PokerPlayHouse
High Hand
I'm expecting a DSQ set myself and would be annoyed to see this, you're not expected to sift through this entire forum for potential pitfalls & perhaps any known issues should be better communicated through the extensive ordering stage. *IMO* These would be near-unusable to me and something I wouldn't expect to see on a $50 ABS set let alone one that costs 1000s.
However, I see David is trying to rectify things which is great, I hope the replacements improve your yield.
Be keen to know whether it's specifically the mold, spot pattern, color, or a combination of things that has resulted in this
How are they not usable though, as they work just fine. It’s just a vanity issue, but the chips are in perfect working condition.
Sure they are usable, but so is a ferrari with a fucked up paint job. I just feel that as long as there are no disclamers on the cpc website, these kind of imperfections are not tolerable. At least not in this quantity
To be perfectly fair, if “usability” was the end goal, then we’d all be buying dice chips.
PCF exists because of our vanity.
I get that.. I was just quoting the “non-usable” line.
I get it, but they are the only custom clay chip maker left. I believe they make the clay for each order way ahead of pressing. They make some extra for imperfections that actually don’t pass their QC. Let’s say you get split spots, and they call you and tell you that your order will now ship 6 months later, as they have to remake clay, pull the mold... yeah, people would be pissed about that too.
so, they have a few choices, all of which will most likely upset most people IIT.
1) they fix it at their cost, lose money, and increase prices. End result, people are upset.
2) they delay shipment, as they need to remake and repress clay. End result, people are upset.
3) they stop offering those colors and spots that produce split spots. End result, people are upset.
4) they put a disclaimer somewhere. People are happy? (When I ordered chips, I never went to the web page, so I would have never seen it)
just a ton of negativity in here for our last homemade clay chip maker (which isn’t a cash cow), and it seems like people that would rather complain and shut them down then try to support them and keep them in the family.
PokerPlayHouse
High Hand
All of these are fair points, but it really is as simple as setting expectations.
If I look on their site and design my chips to what the design tool shows (no split spots, no height differences, no variance) and then receive an order that has various amounts of those “issues”, then I’d have a right to be angry - especially with the cost of the product in relation to the “standard” price of chips in the market.
If I was made aware of potential issues, then I’d be making an informed choice and the burden would rest on me.
They are a premium product and should be priced as such (potentially even higher if it reduces the amount of what we’re previously considered defects).
When businesses change hands from a long time owner to a new owner, the business model often changes due to the debt load that needs to be serviced versus a lower cost model from the previous owner where the fixed costs and assets were already paid for.
I’m in the lumber business and we see the challenge with premium products vs lower cost products all the time. A good example is decking. Regular pressure treated decking is under $1 a foot, composite decking is over $5 a foot. People who purchase $5 a foot decking have higher expectations than people who purchase $1 a foot decking - we can deliver the lower cost decking with a flat bed truck that the load slides off of and the customer only has issues with a board that is unusable. To deliver the premium decking, we have to send a truck with the forklift on the back and the customer inspects every single board and rejects anything with minor blemishes (that have no impact on the intended purpose) - we build those extra costs into the price model.
ninedeuce
Two Pair
Highly unscientific, but I went through the posts on this thread and it appears that of the 15 examples I counted:
- 13/15 involve trimoon spots
- 10/15 involve unweighted base colors
- 12/15 involve DIASQ/SCROWN/LCROWN
I have no idea how many sets with the above combos don't have these issues, though (not as likely to be posted here).
My chips from the same order as these.
There were a significant number of splits. I understand the custom made aspect and that it's not an exact science but an art but I was not happy. I know split spots occur, I've seen them in other chips ( CPC, Paulson, ... ) but I always thought it was the exception, and not the norm. Or at least more possible with certain combinations of molds, spot patters and colors. If I had had that knowledge while designing, I might have made different choices with my chip.
So in saying that, I believe the production issues need to be made better known to potential customers, both on the website and in the design tool, as well as when an order is placed. Post pictures of these split spots and a guide on what combinations have the highest probability of it occurring. CPC should make sure that the customer knows exactly what they are getting and exactly what, if any, issues could occur and have the customer sign off that they understand the "risk". They make a high quality premium product that comes with a premium price tag so the customer should have all the information so there is no surprises or buyers remorse when the chips arrive.
PokerPlayHouse
High Hand
Worrying as my £1 chips are a combo of 3TRIM, unweighted base colours and DIASQ..
I don't want CPC to suffer as a business AT ALL but I really think there needs to be some improvement/better communication moving forward. I would have happily changed up my order had I known there were particular issues here.
With respect, I don't think anybody on PCF is trying to get CPC shut down. I do think it's fair however make expectations clear as a consumer, namely that premium-priced products should result in a product that reflects that price. And, if not, that the company involved take steps to make up that gap (which, from what it appears so far, CPC is attempting to do).
For reference, as I'm sure others are curious, here's all the full and partially split edges from my Hoser Hut set, which arrived today:
Totals below (which include all extras):
fracs: zero splits, (0/230 chips) (215 pcs ordered, 15 extras) 0%
$1s: 24 full, 23 partial splits (45/322 chips) (315 pcs ordered, 7 extras) 15%
$5s: 31 full, 9 partial splits (39/434 chips) (415 pcs ordered, 19 extras) 9%
$20s: 9 full splits (9/98 chips) (95 pcs ordered, 3 extras) 9%
$100s: 17 full, 5 partial splits (22/38 chips) (35 pcs ordered, 3 extras) 58%
Overall, the $1s and the $100s appear most affected, esp. when factoring in the amount of extra $5s received, which evens the error amount out somewhat. The $100s are pretty bad - unacceptable frankly, that such a large amount are split.
Being my first CPC set, one other thing that surprised me was just how many flea bites the chips have and how rough the finishing in general is vs. Paulsons. Not that we should be comparing the two, but the flea bites in particular took me by surprise somewhat. Here's a couple of random racks for reference:
What's the ideal solution? That's open for debate, but perhaps the easiest solution imo, outside of re-tooling the manufacturing process itself, it to just ensure a certain percentage of extra chips are shipped with each order to help compensate for split edges. If the standard amount of split edges is around 10% then maybe CPC should just ship extra chips in that amount with each order.
Geez this is all interesting to say the least. Seeing all these photos, I can't help to think that the "art" is being lost in recently produced chips. I seriously wonder if there is/are new people that just don't have the "feel" for the manufacturing process yet working on the line at CPC. I am trying not to be too negative here as I LOVE CPC, but this all feels like it's a new(er) occurrence to me. I mean maybe I lucked out, but the 2600+ chips (circa 2016) that I am looking at don't have a single split spot and don't have any that I would consider squished bad at all.
Yes, 72o that's my feeling as well. My set above was ordered in the early part of covid, with a lot of tri moons and no issues. Only a few partial splits amongst 1600 chips, not a terrible ratio imo. What is being posted elsewhere is MUCH more concerning, as I have an s crown order in, and like others here am VERY nervous, to say the least.
Very concerning indeed. I also have a scrown order in. I’m not so sure I would have placed the order if I had the information from this thread available at the time.
I’m not so sure. I think this could be more related to the mold/pattern/colours than operator error.
HHR ran shortly before this in the thick of COVID. just checked my order of 600+ and found 7 splits in total that would be more than covered off by extras included. I actually ordered closer to 700+ after member chips, champion chips, extras and samples and grabbed these from that pool without paying much attention.
This is probably the worst offender.
Can you find the other 6?
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Wow.. I hope you are not regretting the decision to get these made. But this thread has made my decision to not get customs. The combination of split spots (which i hope can be examined and communicated in which combination of mold, spots, and colors they appear) and flea bites is a killer for me at least.
Chris Flynn
Two Pair
I have 1,300 H mold chips 312 spot pattern with no split spots. My only issue is with spinners, appears to be air trapped underneath the inlays. Of my 400 $5 chips (yellow base with retro blue spots) have about 40 spinners. I haven’t gone back to see about replacements but spinners are a bit annoying. Somewhere here on PCF I seem to recall that H mold is more prone to spinner issues.
recently put in a 1,000 chip order with a spot pattern ranging from 214 through 814. Decided to order with no inlay and plan to have Gear labels with the help for custom inlay design from another PCF member. Hope I don’t get split spots!
recently put in a 1,000 chip order with a spot pattern ranging from 214 through 814. Decided to order with no inlay and plan to have Gear labels with the help for custom inlay design from another PCF member. Hope I don’t get split spots!
To be honest, the flea bites bug me more than anything else. I realize that CPC in general seems to do a rougher finish than Paulson, but there's actually a pretty significant amount of chips with flea bites in my order.
I've never really paid close enough attention to other peoples' orders, but perhaps some more experienced CPC customers can chime in: are flea bites a fairly common thing on CPC chips?
I don't think most people realise that in many cases we start with maybe 40% more chips than are needed as it is.
The only way we can make even more is to increase some prices 50% and that will result in people waiting 50% longer for their orders.
I fail to understand why people show pics of older sets here with complaints that were never ever mentioned to me.
If we knew the solution it would have been implemented. As was pointed out I explained the many different variables that can cause these problems and I repeat it is not a new phenomenon. It's something ASM and Burt Co for 50 years before them always had. It's a problem Paulson have had for 40 years also.
One split spot on a multi spot chip has always been pretty common. Arrange the chips in a rack so that the bad spots are all lined up facing the camera and it looks way worse.
Only options I see are to either remove half our options, add huge price increases, or shut down.
The first two options are likely to cause the 3rd one anyway.
Our chips are handmade piece by piece. It is an incredibly expensive and time consuming process and impossible to get correct even near all the time. Covid had and continues to have significant impacts on us both financially and in terms of production. Most similar type businesses to us no longer exist as a result of Covid. Neither the process or employees involved have changed so that is not a reason. Customers ordering permutations we have never made before is one reason. Things are not forecastable as many people think, and much of the hypothesis on why and how etc. presented here is inaccurate.
The only way we can make even more is to increase some prices 50% and that will result in people waiting 50% longer for their orders.
I fail to understand why people show pics of older sets here with complaints that were never ever mentioned to me.
If we knew the solution it would have been implemented. As was pointed out I explained the many different variables that can cause these problems and I repeat it is not a new phenomenon. It's something ASM and Burt Co for 50 years before them always had. It's a problem Paulson have had for 40 years also.
One split spot on a multi spot chip has always been pretty common. Arrange the chips in a rack so that the bad spots are all lined up facing the camera and it looks way worse.
Only options I see are to either remove half our options, add huge price increases, or shut down.
The first two options are likely to cause the 3rd one anyway.
Our chips are handmade piece by piece. It is an incredibly expensive and time consuming process and impossible to get correct even near all the time. Covid had and continues to have significant impacts on us both financially and in terms of production. Most similar type businesses to us no longer exist as a result of Covid. Neither the process or employees involved have changed so that is not a reason. Customers ordering permutations we have never made before is one reason. Things are not forecastable as many people think, and much of the hypothesis on why and how etc. presented here is inaccurate.
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I appreciate all this but if it’s a known issue and to be expected, why not clearly state it so everyone can make an informed decision?
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