Tourney Winner Take All unless negotiated Payout Results from 52 tourneys (1 Viewer)

Ken

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TL;DR; - We created a "winner takes all unless negotiated" tourney to avoid payout complaints and also to learn negotiation skills in tourneys.

We play a challenge tourney that has a stated prize structure of winner takes all, unless negotiated. All remaining players need to agree to the new payout structure for it to be approved. The winner keeps a roving trophy and plays the next time for free. We always play the tournament out to one winner. The trophy and winner cannot be negotiated, only the prize money. We call the tourney the BSD Challenge.

We have played 52 times since 1999 (a full deck).

Here is a chart of the payouts relative to the number of players entering the tourney for all 52 tourneys so far.

i-2QhbBVW-X3.png



We have had three times where there was no agreement so it ended up winner takes all. We have also had twice where there were six places of 14 paid.

You can understand that if you are very short stacked you take an offer to pay 2nd through remaining players their buy-in (remainder to 1st). We call this a "save" and happens in most tourneys. When it happens is dependent upon chip distribution.

There are usually re-negotiations when it gets to two or three players. A couple of times heads-up they agreed to split the remaining pool and play for the trophy and subsequent free entry next time.

In any case it is data as to tourney payout preferences, under duress, I suppose.
 
Sounds like a blast! I could see the negotiations getting interesting!
 
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Sounds like a blast! I could see the negotiations getting interesting!

It is a blast.

The negotiations keep pretty simple as nobody wants to get out a notebook and do the math right there.

The first negotiation is usually just the "save" by the lowest chip stack who isn't really that far behind the next higher but significantly below the leader. "Everyone for a save?" If the chip leader is like 50% of the remaining chips they will often veto it. Any change needs to be unanimous for all remaining players.

Later there is some math like deducting what players have already taken when they were eliminated, bumping up the now current "next out" prize, etc.
 
It might be interesting to see these results in chronological order. Has the pattern changed over time?
 
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i dont get it

how many players?

only one gets paid?

and people keep turning up for a winner take all tourney week after week?

Is it the only game played on the night?
 
It might be interesting to see these results in chronological order. Has the pattern changed over time?
I originally sorted it by number of players as I felt that was probably more interesting.

Here it is by date:

i-xVRgPwP-X3.png


The number of players varies as to who is available and where the tourney is held as it is often held at the defending champion's place. The events are mostly in San Jose or Sacramento, California with one annually in Lake Tahoe. We had one in Montana and one in Las Vegas as well.
 
i dont get it

how many players?

only one gets paid?

and people keep turning up for a winner take all tourney week after week?

Is it the only game played on the night?

The number of players varies from five (the minimum allowed by challenge rules) to 16.

We have had 52 challenges since July 1999 so about three per year. Travel is involved as we live in bunches mostly in California. We started all living in the bay area (San Jose, CA) but have moved around. We have an annual weekend in Lake Tahoe and have brought our newer poker buddies up there which gets them into the "gang" so they start coming to the challenges as well.

We always have one challenge at the annual weekend in Lake Tahoe, for sure, as well as a couple of others during the year.

This summer will the the 25th annual Lake Tahoe weekend so we have been doing this for a while. We have at least one "championship" tourney at Lake Tahoe as well that takes all day on the Saturday of the weekend. This tourney is the Friday night tourney, usually.

There is one winner of the tourney but the prize money could be split IF everyone left agrees to do so, hence the "negotiation".
 
So the defending champ has to be there everytime? I’m impressed by the detailed record keeping over the span of 18 years!
 
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So the defending champ has to be there everytime? I’m impressed by the detailed record keeping over the span of 18 years!

The defending champ has to agree to the time and place of the challenge. There are rules if the champ is not agreeable within reason or not available at the annual Tahoe challenge to play without a defending champ. It has only been invoked once as the defending champ moved across the country and was not available to get to Lake Tahoe for the challenge. He sent the trophy so it could be awarded to the new champ.

We also sent a challenge party to Las Vegas for one challenge as the winner had moved there and could play a challenge sooner if we went. We didn’t consider it a burden to get poker players to Las Vegas.
 
The defending champ has to agree to the time and place of the challenge. There are rules if the champ is not agreeable within reason or not available at the annual Tahoe challenge to play without a defending champ. It has only been invoked once as the defending champ moved across the country and was not available to get to Lake Tahoe for the challenge. He sent the trophy so it could be awarded to the new champ.

We also sent a challenge party to Las Vegas for one challenge as the winner had moved there and could play a challenge sooner if we went. We didn’t consider it a burden to get poker players to Las Vegas.

And, yes, we keep good records. We also have all the prize results for 24 (so far) annual Tahoe tourneys in addition to the challenge tourneys.
 
Very very interesting, can you provide some statistics?

Min, avg, median, max / N of players, price for the 1st, for the 2nd, etc..., N of players paid out?

Was the outcome dependent on the buy in?
 
Very very interesting, can you provide some statistics?

Min, avg, median, max / N of players, price for the 1st, for the 2nd, etc..., N of players paid out?

Was the outcome dependent on the buy in?

The buy-in is actually better than being the same. It is adjusted for inflation as the tourneys run from 1999 to 2017 (so far).

The number of players varies as not everyone could make it to every tourney.

The first chart in this thread shows how many players in each tourney, how many payouts there were and the percentage of the prize pool.
 
I was just curious if you had done some statistics on that data. I could do that but I would need to put the data from the chart in an excel spreadsheet first and I don’t feel like that at the moment:rolleyes: too lazy!
 
We had three that were not chopped at all, i.e. winner take all.

These, I think, were cases where someone took off to an early lead and basically refused to deal as they were an obvious favorite.

One of the times we me in a six player tourney. I took out two players in the first few hands so had triple the starting stack not even half way through the first round. I don't think anyone even asked for a deal in that tourney.
 
I was just curious if you had done some statistics on that data. I could do that but I would need to put the data from the chart in an excel spreadsheet first and I don’t feel like that at the moment:rolleyes: too lazy!

I will upload a spreadsheet. I was trying to see if there was a visual way to seeing any patterns.

Dealer, hold my seat. I'll be back in a bit.
 
I will upload a spreadsheet. I was trying to see if there was a visual way to seeing any patterns.

Dealer, hold my seat. I'll be back in a bit.

Here are the quick stats for all tourneys.

i-QHTw5pd.png


Players = how many players started the tourney
Prizes Paid = how many players received part of the prize pool
% Prizes Paid = what percentage of those started received prizes (100% would be everyone)
% to First = what percentage of the total prizes went to first place

I'll post the spreadsheet shortly.
 
That’s great!
Interestingly the average % to first is very close to the typical % to first in ‘normal’ tournaments. Something to learn from this?

Thank you for the report!
 
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