Windwalker on Hustler Casino Live?!?!?!?!?!? (4 Viewers)

[monkeydog]

I had to leave the stream at 8pm to get to dinner

It was a terrible, terrible play because I was in a hurry to leave, and my lesson is learned.

I don't understand this at all.

Why not just pick up and go? Or just leave the table like Ivey and the others did?

You've been very open and honest about your thought process and plays throughout, but this seems like a thin excuse for a bad play made while steaming.

Not being critical, just trying to understand.

 

[Taghkanic]

We play mainly hold ’em in my game, until it gets late and then transition to an orbit rotation of NLHE/dealer’s choice of PLO or PLO8. If it gets past 2 am we play one true (ridiculous and degenerate) circus game, which can’t really be sustained for more than one orbit because the pots and swings are so extreme.

Generally I think of NLHE as more of a thinking man’s strategy game, and 4-5 card games being more for gamblers and entertainment. PLO and PLO8 obviously can involve a lot of strategy, but unless everyone is keen to bring multiple buyins and endure giant swings, I find it can lead to losses of home game players not built for massive variance—especially when you get into Big 0 and other games. To me 5+ card games are really not much different in spirit than going to play roulette or craps at the casino.

As far as the Q8o hand... It’s a lot harder to get a bluff/semi-bluff through 2+ players than heads up. Especially when two of them have already raised and reraised your lead.

While the hand had some marginal equity to improve on the flop against three players’ ranges (very, very little against their specific holdings), bottom pair and a gutshot doesn’t seem like enough even against two loose/aggro/bluffy villains... At least one of whom is sure to call, even with far worse than a made straight but far better than bottom pair and a gutshot.

There are just way too many better pairs, overpairs, two pair, sets, open-enders and combo draws, let alone the made straights, among the combined range of a raiser and reraiser. If anything, the play might work slightly better as a check-raise, but multiway I wouldn’t try it often if ever unless I felt I could get a ton of folds.

Meanwhile Dwan check-folding after the reraise to 55K probably should have been an added hint that one of the best in the world thought this was not a hand to continue (even with TPTK, and he folded before the WW shove).

 

[Taghkanic]

Dwan has said in interviews that his play was crazy (back in the day) and he was just lucky to get away with it.

Also, once the whole world had seen tons of his hole cards on TV, and discussed his play endlessly, he probably started to get a lot more people looking him up light, 3betting him pre, etc. So he may have been forced to switch it up.

 

[MikesDad]

Dressing the part of a poker pro used to require a tracksuit. Has somebody revised the rules?

I know I'm old and perhaps that shapes my opinion, but I've always thought there needed to be a minimum dress code
for a TV game... no tee shirts, no shorts, maybe something else. The game is obviously popular, but perhaps it would be more so if TV games weren't
populated with a number of sloppily dressed players

just my 0.02

 

[toothpic]

I know I'm old and perhaps that shapes my opinion, but I've always thought there needed to be a minimum dress code
for a TV game... no tee shirts, no shorts, maybe something else. The game is obviously popular, but perhaps it would be more so if TV games weren't
populated with a number of sloppily dressed players

just my 0.02

I kind of agree with this, but just no tacky tshirts with messages on them, tank tops, etc.
Shorts are fine because we won't see them anyway and some people are just hot all the time so it's better for them to be comfortable while playing.

 

[WedgeRock]

was not aware krish was from the forum

 

[Highli99]

When I see the attempts to make Omaha still higher variance by adding more hole cards, I am reminded of the following:

https://www.theonion.com/fuck-everything-were-doing-five-blades-1819584036

Ironically that article sounds like it was written by @SpaceMonkey420 who is also an advocate for Omaha variants

 

[toothpic]

they have ceramics only for small denoms and low-end tourneys typically. big fan of G&G but not a fan of the crappy ones on the stream !! was not aware krish was from the forum but when I heard him talk about chips on the stream a light bulb went on

FYP
https://www.pokerchipforum.com/threads/windwalker’s-chipping-journey-in-pr0n0graph1c-detail.60841/

 

[Kain8]

Dwan made a good point about the high stakes games he plays in where you have to massive nit to play. Everyone has everything solved and plays like a robot.

This right here is the biggest red flag that you can ask for. When a player with as much aggression, creativity, and success as Tom Dwan has says this about NLHE (granted from a nosebleed perspective) you should really be expanding your repertoire of games. Tight makes right, but damn if it isn't just boring folding > 80% and watching other people play garbage over and over.

 

[Senzrock]

Yep, he is a smooth talker: https://abc7chicago.com/sweetheart-swindler-rape-kidnapping-abduction/2678265/

Wait, this was Lucky from the stream? That's insane. Berkey is vouching for this dude?

 

[Senzrock]

This right here is the biggest red flag that you can ask for. When a player with as much aggression, creativity, and success as Tom Dwan has says this about NLHE (granted from a nosebleed perspective) you should really be expanding your repertoire of games. Tight makes right, but damn if it isn't just boring folding > 80% and watching other people play garbage over and over.

This comes down to a central question for each player - do you play for profit or for fun (fun broadly speaking, this includes the social aspect, having an exciting evening on a Saturday night etc). If you play NLHE for profit, as in, your rent money depends on being a big winner in the game, there is simply no other way than to play tight-aggressive. This doesn't mean you don't bluff at all of course (see Garrett as a prime example), but a tight strategy along with well timed aggression in a few key spots when are are able to put opponents on weak/capped ranges, is going to be your most profitable route. This does make NLHE "boring" for some, but I think it can help you incorporate patience into your overall game (and life really).

 

[cpac54]

Wait, this was Lucky from the stream? That's insane. Berkey is vouching for this dude?

judging by the mugshot, it sure looks like it. What a piece of work (to put it politely).

 

[Senzrock]

judging by the mugshot, it sure looks like it. What a piece of work (to put it politely).

Yeah, just curious if this is 100% confirmed because that would just be an awful look for Berkey + Hustler Live all around to be honest.

 

[cpac54]

Yeah, just curious if this is 100% confirmed because that would just be an awful look for Berkey + Hustler Live all around to be honest.

tbf, they let Armenian Mike play, so I'm guessing character references aren't really their thing... (though, to be clear, I'm not saying that being a scumbag angle-shooter and being charged with rape, fraud, etc. are on equal footing here).

 

[WedgeRock]

Seeing how disinterested Ivey was and how much they promoted him, I believe he was paid to be there.

 

[Stufflymcstuff]

This right here is the biggest red flag that you can ask for. When a player with as much aggression, creativity, and success as Tom Dwan has says this about NLHE (granted from a nosebleed perspective) you should really be expanding your repertoire of games. Tight makes right, but damn if it isn't just boring folding > 80% and watching other people play garbage over and over.

Online cash is for sure like this, even as low as 1/2nl on international servers (the zoom pool is so reg infested that many hands won’t have a single non-pro at the table), but for live games this is never the case and can never be the case because no live grinder would waste their time playing in a game that tough. Tom is just pickier about how soft a game has to be because he can be because he gets invites based on his fame (and this hustler game is as soft as it gets).

This conversation is as standard as it gets in any live ecosystem. Nits feigning a distaste for the nits, trying to goad the fun players to do their thang, show 1 big bluff an hour against another table nit, and then wait for someone to punt.

 

[Gear]

Seeing how disinterested Ivey was and how much they promoted him, I believe he was paid to be there.

Uninterested. If he was paid to be there (and I'm willing to believe that he was) then by definition he wasn't disinterested.

 

[Senzrock]

Seeing how disinterested Ivey was and how much they promoted him, I believe he was paid to be there.

Don't think this was true. He was in town and I think the producers just bugged him for a long time to join the lineup for a weekend. He clearly didn't want to be there, and it showed. This is one of the downsides of catering to the members of poker royalty. If you think that the production crew has enough $$$ to offer Ivey to play, I don't think you realize how much money he regularly plays for lol.

 

[Goldfish]

When I see the attempts to make Omaha still higher variance by adding more hole cards, I am reminded of the following:

https://www.theonion.com/fuck-everything-were-doing-five-blades-1819584036

That article is really funny! It does sound like @SpaceMonkey420 wrote it! Hahaha.

 

[Taghkanic]

This right here is the biggest red flag that you can ask for. When a player with as much aggression, creativity, and success as Tom Dwan has says this about NLHE (granted from a nosebleed perspective) you should really be expanding your repertoire of games. Tight makes right, but damn if it isn't just boring folding > 80% and watching other people play garbage over and over.

It’s the nosebleed part that makes this less of a worry.

If you’re playing at a truly elite level, sitting down with guys like Petrangelo et al. who study and discuss spots and solver charts in a group of 6-8 guys dozens of hours per week, of course the game is going to be super tough and to some extent plodding (though GTO does not necessarily mean always nitty).

But how many games are there like that? How many have there ever been? None in my local casino, or area home games.

I highly doubt Dwan is spending most of his time playing against a table of his peers—a full ring of top pros. Surely his bread-and-butter is games with whales who want to be able to brag, “I took a pot off Durrrrr,” never mentioning the dozens of pots he took off them.

I don’t get the sense that bug pros are looking to target other big pros day-to-day. Maybe in special heads-up matches where they “win” in publicity and sponsorships, or for truly astronomical money as with Triton. But not on the regular.

 

[Senzrock]

It’s the nosebleed part that makes this less of a worry.

If you’re playing at a truly elite level, sitting down with guys like Petrangelo et al. who study and discuss spots and solver charts in a group of 6-8 guys dozens of hours per week, of course the game is going to be super tough and to some extent plodding (though GTO does not necessarily mean always nitty).

But how many games are there like that? How many have there ever been? None in my local casino, or area home games.

I highly doubt Dwan is spending most of his time playing against a table of his peers—a full ring of top pros. Surely his bread-and-butter is games with whales who want to be able to brag, “I took a pot off Durrrrr,” never mentioning the dozens of pots he took off them.

I don’t get the sense that bug pros are looking to target other big pros day-to-day. Maybe in special heads-up matches where they “win” in publicity and sponsorships, or for truly astronomical money as with Triton. But not on the regular.

Completely agreed with all of this.

 

[feltschmerz]

It’s the nosebleed part that makes this less of a worry.

If you’re playing at a truly elite level, sitting down with guys like Petrangelo et al. who study and discuss spots and solver charts in a group of 6-8 guys dozens of hours per week, of course the game is going to be super tough and to some extent plodding (though GTO does not necessarily mean always nitty).

But how many games are there like that? How many have there ever been? None in my local casino, or area home games.

I highly doubt Dwan is spending most of his time playing against a table of his peers—a full ring of top pros. Surely his bread-and-butter is games with whales who want to be able to brag, “I took a pot off Durrrrr,” never mentioning the dozens of pots he took off them.

I don’t get the sense that bug pros are looking to target other big pros day-to-day. Maybe in special heads-up matches where they “win” in publicity and sponsorships, or for truly astronomical money as with Triton. But not on the regular.

Training oneself to be a GTO bot is a pretty daunting task. I would be surprised if more than half the pros out there have put in the work required to develop a real GTO strategy, much less the recreational players. That being said, GTO-influenced concepts are everywhere, which means that people are more likely to see huge river bets than they were back when Dwan was using massive overbets to melt villains' brains.

 

[Anthony Martino]

Training oneself to be a GTO bot is a pretty daunting task. I would be surprised if more than half the pros out there have put in the work required to develop a real GTO strategy, much less the recreational players. That being said, GTO-influenced concepts are everywhere, which means that people are more likely to see huge river bets than they were back when Dwan was using massive overbets to melt villains' brains.

GTO is really going to come into play when you're up against tougher, thinking opponents. But if you're trying to profit then you're more likely going to seek out games where you can play an exploitative style and take advantage of players who make multiple mistakes.

 

[Senzrock]

GTO is really going to come into play when you're up against tougher, thinking opponents. But if you're trying to profit then you're more likely going to seek out games where you can play an exploitative style and take advantage of players who make multiple mistakes.

Exactly. I would say though, that even though for basically 100% of amateurs and many pros, GTO is a not as "relevant" as it seems to be, it is still very worthwhile to try to *understand* how one goes about playing a balanced strategy. The best players in the world today, attempt to understand and play as close to GTO as possible, while often veering off of it to play the exploitative style (and most profitable) that @Anthony Martino mentions here.

 

[Kain8]

But if you're trying to profit then you're more likely going to seek out games where you can play an exploitative style and take advantage of players who make multiple mistakes.

Well these last 2 streams show that in freaking spades. Just need to harpoon a Mikki, pathetic angler Lucky, or D-bag Dylan for a few hundred thousand and call it a day.

 

[Senzrock]

Exactly. I would say though, that even though for basically 100% of amateurs and many pros, GTO is a not as "relevant" as it seems to be, it is still very worthwhile to try to *understand* how one goes about playing a balanced strategy. The best players in the world today, attempt to understand and play as close to GTO as possible, while often veering off of it to play the exploitative style (and most profitable) that @Anthony Martino mentions here.

To name just a basic example that everyone here can relate to. If you are playing your weekly $1/2 home game with friends on a Friday night, GTO is more or less irrelevant (and the players at the table who mention the concept, probably don't really understand what they are talking about). Having said that, if in this game, you play 100% of your flush draws in the same manor, then at some point, players will eventually realize an important part of your game style and potentially will adjust (many won't of course). It is valuable to understand what a mixed or balanced strategy might look like for yourself, when for example you have a big draw (or when you flop a set oop vs a tight late position raiser or whatever the case might be). Understanding balance, even if you don't need to fully incorporate it in every game you play, I think is still key to becoming a stronger and more profitable player.

 

[Kain8]

To name just a basic example that everyone here can relate to. If you are playing your weekly $1/2 home game with friends on a Friday night, GTO is more or less irrelevant (and the players at the table who mention the concept, probably don't really understand what they are talking about). Having said that, if in this game, you play 100% of your flush draws in the same manor, then at some point, players will eventually realize an important part of your game style and potentially will adjust (many won't of course). It is valuable to understand what a mixed or balanced strategy might look like for yourself, when for example you have a big draw (or when you flop a set oop vs a tight late position raiser or whatever the case might be). Understanding balance, even if you don't need to full incorporate it in every game you play, I think is still key to becoming a stronger and more profitable player.

Well said.

 

[JScott]

Watched the stream last night (or half of it). And I have to say, Hustler live blows LATB out of the water. But damn Bart and Nick didn't shut up that night. DGAF does a much better job imo. They need one announcer who lets the players talk.

 

[raynmanas]

We play a game called Sweet Sassy Molassy. 2s, 8s, One-Eyed Jacks, Suicide Kings, the Black Mariah, all clubs and everything red is wild. Best low hand wins but 4s don't count towards the low. If you have the 6 of spades and win you have to blow the guy to your left, unless it's a woman in which case she gets to yell, "Sweet Sassy Molassy!" and kick you in the giblets as hard as she can.

this is basically my understanding of circus games.

 

[navels]

Yeah, just curious if this is 100% confirmed because that would just be an awful look for Berkey + Hustler Live all around to be honest.

I'm not sure how to go about confirming something like this. It's now up on reddit btw:

https://www.reddit.com/r/poker/comments/qfe8ih

(Not saying this is any kind of confirmation.)