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Who's the GOAT cash game player? (4 Viewers)

Definitely not Negreanu. Phil Ivey I’d say overall, especially since he’s competent in many games. I haven’t heard many stories of Negreanu battling it out in the biggest nosebleeds, even though he’s certainly a competent and excellent player
 
Depends how you define “GOAT,” imo. Highest peak? Most elite technical skill? Greatest longevity? Cash is particularly difficult to judge because most results aren’t available for us to see. Regardless, I think some candidates would be:
• Phil Ivey
• Andrew Robl
• Patrik Antonius
• Daniel Cates / Jungleman
• Linus Loeliger / LLinusLLove
• Tom Dwan / Durrrr
• Viktor Blom / Isildur1
 
Booshme said:
Definitely not Negreanu. Phil Ivey I’d say overall, especially since he’s competent in many games. I haven’t heard many stories of Negreanu battling it out in the biggest nosebleeds, even though he’s certainly a competent and excellent player
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I saw a recent interview with him where he said that he only played cash to finance his tournament career. So presumably at some point, Daniel just decided he was more interested in tournaments than cash.
 
upNdown said:
I saw a recent interview with him where he said that he only played cash to finance his tournament career. So presumably at some point, Daniel just decided he was more interested in tournaments than cash.
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When he started getting sponsored to rebuy unlimited in tournaments I imagine. He's set for life so now he can just fire 27 bullets in a tournament and play for the glory and content for his sponsors and risk nothing of his own. Living on easy street.

I'd say Ivey would be my pick. I wonder how Barry Greenstein did back in the day?
 
Johnny Chan won a ton at cash back in the day I believe.

But I think you have to consider pre and post poker boom. If you remember in the mid 2000s many of the pros struggled against the new age of online players and had to readjust. I remember Doyle Brunson being interviewed and saying young guys are seeing more hands in one month than it took them a decade to see in live poker
 
Andy Beal. Billionaire learns poker and stands up to a cadre of the best poker players available. The professionals switch in and out, but Andy soldiers on trying to be completely unexploitable for hours and hours. I believe Ivey did the best against him but even then, its a team of professional gamblers versus a relative new player.

Highly advise reading the book, its a story straight out of a movie.
https://www.amazon.com/Professor-Banker-Suicide-King-Richest/dp/0446694975
 
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NotRealNameNoSir said:
Andy Beal. Billionaire learns poker and stands up to a cadre of the best poker players available. The professionals switch in and out, but Andy soldiers on trying to be completely exploitable for hours and hours. I believe Ivey did the best against him but even then, its a team of professional gamblers versus a relative new player.

Highly advise reading the book, its a story straight out of a movie.
https://www.amazon.com/Professor-Banker-Suicide-King-Richest/dp/0446694975
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This book was such a fun read. Really gave me a sense of depth of the poker scene and the insane stakes these poker players play.

Highly recommend.
 
RadicusScout said:
This book was such a fun read. Really gave me a sense of depth of the poker scene and the insane stakes these poker players play.

Highly recommend.
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Yes! Funny thing is, watching it live wouldn't exactly be interesting. This isn't Poker After Dark or Jack Links WSOP coverage lol, this is a genius billionaire flying in with sunglasses, headphones, and a metronome to beat the world's best players for millions. Insane.
 
chippitydoodah said:
Jennifer Tilly

My T in G.O.A.T. might be different than yours
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Christian Bale Nodding GIF
 
For some reason, I think the greatest of all time must be a relatively unknown player that has access to very high stakes games. He’s able to quietly sheer the sheep over and over without drawing attention/becoming feared. He gives up some EV to keep getting the invite.
 
elemeno said:
For some reason, I think the greatest of all time must be a relatively unknown player that has access to very high stakes games. He’s able to quietly sheer the sheep over and over without drawing attention/becoming feared. He gives up some EV to keep getting the invite.
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Brings up a great point! GOAT as in skill vs fish, skill vs the other greatests, BBs/cash won lifetime? The meta idea of considering who is getting invited to these games is something I hadn't considered, really interesting.

Robl getting berated by Tony G had to have hurt his earnings for a bit.
 
NotRealNameNoSir said:
Andy Beal. Billionaire learns poker and stands up to a cadre of the best poker players available. The professionals switch in and out, but Andy soldiers on trying to be completely exploitable for hours and hours. I believe Ivey did the best against him but even then, its a team of professional gamblers versus a relative new player.

Highly advise reading the book, its a story straight out of a movie.
https://www.amazon.com/Professor-Banker-Suicide-King-Richest/dp/0446694975
Click to expand...
I read that book years ago. Very cool story. That said, my take away was that any advantage Beal had was really just his limitless risk tolerance and bankroll. If I remember the story correctly he actually lost quite a bit to the pros and simply kept pushing for them to play higher and higher stakes hoping it would impact their play. Reminded me of the Amarillo Slim quote - “I don’t look for suckers, I find winners and make suckers out of them”

“Sacred money don't make money” is the saying and Beal simply pushed these guys into the realm of “scared money”…a place most of them were not accustomed to being in. Many of these pros exploited scared money in their poker careers…now they were the scared money. One bad session a could wipe out not just their bankroll but most of their net worth.

He played them all individually becasue they didnt have the money to play at those stakes and had to pool it. Also, wasnt it limit holdem?
 
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Old State said:
He played them all individually becasue they didnt have the money to play at those stakes and had to pool it
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Sure, much of it was financial but the book also focuses on him limiting the advantages they had. Many of the pros bemoaned how effective his bet timing/tell limiting was, he was robotic. They may have still been better but he severely lowered the difference against the best that stepped up.

Also, it wasn't just pooling money it was also time and effort. He played until several pros quit after large losing sessions. It wasn't a few big NLHE pots breaking them it was methodical limit betting for hours and hours. They pooled their money but by the end, several of the pros said no to playing him because they believed they would lose. I remember specifically Forrest and Harman not wanting to play him. It wasn't that he was just double-or-nothing his way up, he was up over 10 million at one point against the best. Ivey stepped up and whooped him for 10+ millions at the end to seal the deal though.

I lent the book to my father otherwise I may grab some passages for you, but it wasn't as simple as just money. He wasn't just a rich guy, he was a billionaire/math genius who devleoped computer simulations to practice and adapted to each pros playing style. He beat world-class pros repeatedly for huge amounts; he showed up and took Howard Lederer for millions during a few extended sessions in a row, exhausted Jenn Harman. Reese even had a tough time during some of the longer sessions.
 
NotRealNameNoSir said:
Sure, much of it was financial but the book also focuses on him limiting the advantages they had. Many of the pros bemoaned how effective his bet timing/tell limiting was, he was robotic. They may have still been better but he severely lowered the difference against the best that stepped up.

Also, it wasn't just pooling money it was also time and effort. He played until several pros quit after large losing sessions. It wasn't a few big NLHE pots breaking them it was methodical limit betting for hours and hours. They pooled their money but by the end, several of the pros said no to playing him because they believed they would lose. I remember specifically Forrest and Harman not wanting to play him. It wasn't that he was just double-or-nothing his way up, he was up over 10 million at one point against the best. Ivey stepped up and whooped him for 10+ millions at the end to seal the deal though.

I lent the book to my father otherwise I may grab some passages for you, but it wasn't as simple as just money. He wasn't just a rich guy, he was a billionaire/math genius who devleoped computer simulations to practice and adapted to each pros playing style. He beat world-class pros repeatedly for huge amounts; he showed up and took Howard Lederer for millions during a few extended sessions in a row, exhausted Jenn Harman. Reese even had a tough time during some of the longer sessions.
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I’m not saying that he wasn’t good, but $10M was only 100 big blinds at the stakes they ended up at. Wasn’t it up to $100/200K…blinds 50K/100K? I know thats a bigger deal in limit…but still. It’s been a while since I read it but at the end of the book I remember feeling he had simply bullied the pros with astronomical amounts of money

EDIT - I googled it and my memory was correct. He ended up getting crushed and basically gave up on poker. Todd Brunson felted him for $5M

https://www.pokerlistings.com/poker-player/andy-beal
 
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Old State said:
I’m not saying that he wasn’t good, but $10M was only 100 big blinds at the stakes they ended up at. Wasn’t it up to $100/200K…blinds 50K/100K? I know thats a bigger deal in limit…but still. It’s been a while since I read it but at the end of the book I remember feeling he had simply bullied the pros with astronomical amounts of money
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You can feel that way, sure, but whole chapters were dedicated to having to find someone to play him because the others were exhausted. Even Doyle stepped up to play him because they needed someone to sit. The 100k/200k blinds were legendary but most of it was an average of 10k/20k to 50k/100k, depending on session and player. Pros talked him down and they'd usually settle somewhere between. There was significant financial stress, but he also developed his heads-up game at an incredible pace.

They pooled their their time and effort and lost for consecutive sessions. I put that above simple bullying, heads up against professionals. You know better than I, limit poker isn't about large NLHE decisions for all their money bullying with a big stack its about a grinding effort with little edges adding up. He was able to play against the best in the world with 1/100th of the table time and hang, limiting their edges and balancing his play while playing each person. He beat Chip Reese, Gus Hansen, and Jen Harman for over 10 million in a single day. He was tireless, and for a cash game player that's got to count in a big way.

If it was just about the money, why wouldn't they just give their money to Forrest or Lederer and let them play nearly risk-free? I can't really argue your feelings though, so we can agree to disagree.


Anyway, total pick is either Andy Beal or Phil Ivey, depending on what cash GOAT means in the discussion. I come from boxing where GOAT is argued constantly lol, metrics vary. To the rest of you: read the book! Fantastic poker story and I love the first hand accounts.
 
NotRealNameNoSir said:
You can feel that way, sure, but whole chapters were dedicated to having to find someone to play him because the others were exhausted. Even Doyle stepped up to play him because they needed someone to sit. The 100k/200k blinds were legendary but most of it was an average of 10k/20k to 50k/100k, depending on session and player. Pros talked him down and they'd usually settle somewhere between. There was significant financial stress, but he also developed his heads-up game at an incredible pace.

They pooled their their time and effort and lost for consecutive sessions. I put that above simple bullying, heads up against professionals. You know better than I, limit poker isn't about large NLHE decisions for all their money bullying with a big stack its about a grinding effort with little edges adding up. He was able to play against the best in the world with 1/100th of the table time and hang, limiting their edges and balancing his play while playing each person. He beat Chip Reese, Gus Hansen, and Jen Harman for over 10 million in a single day. He was tireless, and for a cash game player that's got to count in a big way.

If it was just about the money, why wouldn't they just give their money to Forrest or Lederer and let them play nearly risk-free? I can't really argue your feelings though, so we can agree to disagree.


Anyway, total pick is either Andy Beal or Phil Ivey, depending on what cash GOAT means in the discussion. I come from boxing where GOAT is argued constantly lol, metrics vary. To the rest of you: read the book! Fantastic poker story and I love the first hand accounts.
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Well we can agree it’s an amazing book. Also reminds me of how much I loved limit poker…which I know isnt a popular opinion….but to me it severely limits the luck factor. If you have a skill and discipline advantage you will consistently win with little risk to your bankroll. In my group its was mostly a discipline advantage as mostly of them played way too loose and aggressive😉 . I ordered my first set of custom ASMs in 2003 with the money I made from my original $1/2 limit home game!
 
Old State said:
Well we can agree it’s an amazing book. Also reminds me of how much I loved limit poker…which I know isnt a popular opinion….but to me it severely limits the luck factor. If you have a skill and discipline advantage you will consistently win with little risk to your bankroll. In my group its was mostly a discipline advantage as mostly of them played way too loose and aggressive😉 . I ordered my first set of custom ASMs in 2003 with the money I made from my original $1/2 limit home game!
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Agreed on all counts! Amazing book and love limit. Fun but disciplined. I think the WSOP streams have been good for it, watching the best play 2-7 triple draw or stud hi/lo makes it a lot more appealing for players that are worried about having to wait for 6th St to bet big.
 

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