I agree with this the most. One way of doing it, or the other is fine with me, but you have to pick one and stick with it to be a good host.
Tourney When to Blind in Players that are Late? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter codeman00
- Start date
That's good advice; I'll take it.
I just raised the question, because as much as I appreciate how an on-time bonus benefits the host, the fact that some players start with more chips than others doesnt sit right with me. It seems to go against the very nature of a tournament.
But I'll figure it out, assuming I can pull together enough players for a regular tournament.
Wils
Flush
Yes.
You could alternatively say when someone is late, they get a full stack minus an appropriate amount which represents what they would have paid in blinds. That way no one is doing any pillaging.
There are at least three ways of handling this situation, each one with pros and cons. The fact that so far everyone has said they haven't had any problems with their own particular method would suggest it isn't an issue however it's done.
justsomedude
Straight Flush
I get it - I really do!!!
I started my tournies over two years ago with Rebuys AND AddOns, and it just got out of control real quick. The on-time players who only wanted to do a single buyin and focus on play/strategy were asking, "why bother?" and the late guys were maxing out rebuys and addons with reckless abandon. It was incredibly unfair to the on-time guys who only planned for a single buyin.
I know the late-penalty bothers you, but I promise you, once you enforce it, it will NOT happen often. People learn very quickly from negative reinforcement. And once they learn that dicking around with your start time gets them a shorter stack, well... you can gauran-damn-tee they'll be in their seat for your next tournament. After a few weeks of strictly enforcing the rules, 100% of your people will be on time, every time. And that's really the goal.
We have been using the "on-time bonus chips" method for nearly 10 years, with great success. Our typical bonus amount is usually around 15% of starting stack size.
For those who prefer to put out stacks and deduct blinds as play progresses (but are concerned about positional fairness), a fair solution is pretty simple. The empty seat stacks are not dealt cards, and both blinds (small and big) are removed from the stack and removed from play as the button passes the seat. This solves both 'fairness' problems -- the late-comer stacks pay blinds just like everybody else, and nobody that is already seated gains any unfair advantage based on the location of those empty seat stacks.
It works just fine, although the bonus chip method is easier to manage.
For those who prefer to put out stacks and deduct blinds as play progresses (but are concerned about positional fairness), a fair solution is pretty simple. The empty seat stacks are not dealt cards, and both blinds (small and big) are removed from the stack and removed from play as the button passes the seat. This solves both 'fairness' problems -- the late-comer stacks pay blinds just like everybody else, and nobody that is already seated gains any unfair advantage based on the location of those empty seat stacks.
It works just fine, although the bonus chip method is easier to manage.
justsomedude
Straight Flush
15% as my "standard" - 20% when I am feeling like having a little fun.
For my T10k tournies I typically award 1,500 bonus chips.
@Kyle - what % do you use your for you tournies?
This is much higher than expected. I'm going to try this out for my next quarterly event. Thanks!
DJ Mack
Flush
Without even realizing that they're not getting a bonus; they're just avoiding being penalized. It's not a penalty, it's a tax. But this shit makes perfect sense for the women in my life where items bought on sale (but for which there was originally no intention of buying until said item is seen in the store by chance) is money saved as opposed to an unplanned expenditure.You'll be surprised how many people will get their ass there on time for those bonus chips.
WedgeRock
Royal Flush
If its a T10k blind schedule and late players get 10k while on-time players get 11.5k, then it is an "on-time bonus" and not a "late penalty."
IMO.
IMO.
justsomedude
Straight Flush
But when you're the one guy with 10k, and the other 17 players all have 11.5k... it sure as hell feels like a penalty. And that's the intent.
OP
OP
codeman00
Flush
There are a lot of great ideas here.
My current situation is that we are playing mid week where people are coming from work and need to be home at a decent hour. I set up 6:15PM start as the starting time for a freezeout tournament and the stacks would blind down from the tourney start. I will also add that I was at the min number of players for a tournament (8). A friend texted me and said that a work training class would make him late (I know the class and he is correct). So he canceled....now I'm at 7 players which is close to full tourney cancellation in my mind.
So then I started thinking that I need to make an exception for players that really want to be there but really can't....so I posted the question on the forum. If he's blinded out too much, then he's not going to show. So I'm bending my own rules to keep the game going which is not a good way to start. Another player is going to be 15-20 min late too so he falls into a similar boat of being late but wanting to play.
I have decided tonight to start blinding late arrivals during Level 3 which starts 40 minutes in. This should allow for late arrivals to be late but what I don't want it to cause is everyone showing up really late while me a friend play heads up for 30 minutes until everyone arrives. That's just dumb. But it could theoretically happen.
My main issue is I don't have enough players. If I did, I wouldn't care if late players showed up...we would already be playing. I haven't quite figured out how to handle all of this but it will be a combination of all of your ideas.
My current situation is that we are playing mid week where people are coming from work and need to be home at a decent hour. I set up 6:15PM start as the starting time for a freezeout tournament and the stacks would blind down from the tourney start. I will also add that I was at the min number of players for a tournament (8). A friend texted me and said that a work training class would make him late (I know the class and he is correct). So he canceled....now I'm at 7 players which is close to full tourney cancellation in my mind.
So then I started thinking that I need to make an exception for players that really want to be there but really can't....so I posted the question on the forum. If he's blinded out too much, then he's not going to show. So I'm bending my own rules to keep the game going which is not a good way to start. Another player is going to be 15-20 min late too so he falls into a similar boat of being late but wanting to play.
I have decided tonight to start blinding late arrivals during Level 3 which starts 40 minutes in. This should allow for late arrivals to be late but what I don't want it to cause is everyone showing up really late while me a friend play heads up for 30 minutes until everyone arrives. That's just dumb. But it could theoretically happen.
My main issue is I don't have enough players. If I did, I wouldn't care if late players showed up...we would already be playing. I haven't quite figured out how to handle all of this but it will be a combination of all of your ideas.
How late do you run the tournament? You can estimate and control when your tournament will end based on starting stacks, and blind levels (length and amount).
I have a weekly poker tournament and have no problem running it with as few as 6 players (but we have rebuys). We even play with as few as 4 players (when it is that short, which occurs rarely, we take it as an opportunity to play mixed games which can be more difficult with more amateur players).
Grant
Wils
Flush
Seriously. We're onto the second page of the thread and no-one's suggested, "Just play cash games" yet???
for my last tournament, I used the 10% on time bonus and made it a rebuy tournament. I gave players their stacks when they bought in. If you bought in before the rebuy period, you got a full stack. It worked great, as I knew I would have a few late comers.
for the casual player/game. getting a full stack encourages players to still come knowing they will be a little late. If they knew they would be an hour late (not everyone works M-F 8-5), and were being blinded out (and not yet paid), they may change their mind figuring they have lost 10-15% of their stack. since they didn't pay, they aren't TECHNICALLY committed to the game. Also, additional chips went into play from their stack that wouldn't have been there if the stack was not in play.
I will continue to use this method. I did 1 rebuy per person until the 1st break (1hr 40 min). we had 23 original buy-ins and 7 rebuys. the 1st person that busted out and rebought went on to win the tournament.
for the casual player/game. getting a full stack encourages players to still come knowing they will be a little late. If they knew they would be an hour late (not everyone works M-F 8-5), and were being blinded out (and not yet paid), they may change their mind figuring they have lost 10-15% of their stack. since they didn't pay, they aren't TECHNICALLY committed to the game. Also, additional chips went into play from their stack that wouldn't have been there if the stack was not in play.
I will continue to use this method. I did 1 rebuy per person until the 1st break (1hr 40 min). we had 23 original buy-ins and 7 rebuys. the 1st person that busted out and rebought went on to win the tournament.
OP
OP
codeman00
Flush
This is exactly the situation I'm in.
I don't ever offer rebuys.
I've offered an on time bonus for some time now, with great success. I see this on time bonus as a solution to encourage my crew to show up on time. It's only around 5% but I might increase that moving forward. I've attended many games where the start time seems "advisory" so ppl meander in when ever they damn well please. This causes the TD a ton of back and forth, all while trying to play their game too.
I pre enter all my players into my blinds up app, and let it do random seating assignments. This works really well? And I can even do printouts of the seating charts ahead of time. So I place stacks on the table, to get blinded out. I don't do rebuys, so no one comes late and gets a full stack. they've committed when they rsvp'd, and everyone starts the game when I start the clock. So I blind off stacks until the first break (then remove if they don't show).
There are other issues I see (some may not consider these important).
One is table balancing. If your TD program puts two ppl on a table and both turn out to be late comers, if you don't blind them out, the table plays short handed. (This is not fair). I like BGs solution, but the table still plays short. blinds will come around more often for all the players. I get that this could be solved by not plugging ppl into the software until they arrive, but doing it all in advance makes my job much easier/smoother on game day. It's just the way I do things.
I've offered an on time bonus for some time now, with great success. I see this on time bonus as a solution to encourage my crew to show up on time. It's only around 5% but I might increase that moving forward. I've attended many games where the start time seems "advisory" so ppl meander in when ever they damn well please. This causes the TD a ton of back and forth, all while trying to play their game too.
I pre enter all my players into my blinds up app, and let it do random seating assignments. This works really well? And I can even do printouts of the seating charts ahead of time. So I place stacks on the table, to get blinded out. I don't do rebuys, so no one comes late and gets a full stack. they've committed when they rsvp'd, and everyone starts the game when I start the clock. So I blind off stacks until the first break (then remove if they don't show).
There are other issues I see (some may not consider these important).
One is table balancing. If your TD program puts two ppl on a table and both turn out to be late comers, if you don't blind them out, the table plays short handed. (This is not fair). I like BGs solution, but the table still plays short. blinds will come around more often for all the players. I get that this could be solved by not plugging ppl into the software until they arrive, but doing it all in advance makes my job much easier/smoother on game day. It's just the way I do things.
I know you like to have things done in advance, but I'd just enter the names as they arrive (and pay). Do the table draw 5 minutes before play starts, and just randomly add the extra stacks at each table for those who signed up but have not yet shown. Keeps your tables balanced and you can still blind out the empty-seat stacks.
I've mentioned here before about a game I played in where they blind out players who aren't there yet, or who have played and aren't going to show. It got way out of hand. I've witnessed a 3 table tourney with 4-5 people per table and the rest were non-players being blinded out. It was a points league and people would regularly pay and not show. The host allowed the chips to remain on the table until they were gone, with the unlucky slob next to him, basically everybody, forced to manage their chips and shuffle for them half the night. They occasionally even made it into the money. It soured me against blinding stacks. If it were up to me, I would only have allowed it for a certain time and give zero points for complete no shows. I like the idea of simply giving full stacks without the on time bonus for late players for a non-points tourney.
So, I used Blinds Up for this past tournament, and loved it (still has a few bugs that I would like fixed). What I did was add all players who had committed to playing, but did not buy them in. This way, you can randomize your seating before hand. Once each person bought in, I took their cash, I clicked the button to buy them in, told them their seat, and handed them their chips (and bonus if on time). Worked like a charm. If you want, you can have the stacks on the table, and 5 minutes prior, pull the stacks of the late players.
I had the chips in racks off to the side, but had the iPad with me. When they came in late, took their money, gave them chips, and marked them as bought in.
After the time period for entry is over, I calculated the payouts with the number of players and rebuys, and posted it (I was paying 5, but blindsup only displays 4).
Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy
Last edited:
Your workflow is almost the same way I handle my sign-ins. Add the players ahead of time, but don't seat or buy them in The only difference is they pull a seating chip and I enter their seat in the app. They then sit down and chat (drink) until the cards fly. I've been using BlindsUp for almost 2 years now - love it. Just wish there was an easier 'undo' for some screens.
Wils
Flush
How does this sound? Just thinking off the top of my head...
Anyone who arrives before a certain time gets a bonus, non-value chip. If they bust out, they get to exchange that chip for 10% (or 5% or whatever) of their starting stack.
It's like the time bonus mentioned earlier, with the benefit that nobody actually gets treated preferentially (i.e. your stack isn't greater or smaller just because you got there early or late) and as the game progresses it makes less difference.
Like I said, just sounding it out - I've not tried this and I don't think I'm about to!
Anyone who arrives before a certain time gets a bonus, non-value chip. If they bust out, they get to exchange that chip for 10% (or 5% or whatever) of their starting stack.
It's like the time bonus mentioned earlier, with the benefit that nobody actually gets treated preferentially (i.e. your stack isn't greater or smaller just because you got there early or late) and as the game progresses it makes less difference.
Like I said, just sounding it out - I've not tried this and I don't think I'm about to!
AWenger
Full House
Highlighting above is mine. I think @upNdown was advocating that the latecomers could pay extra for the bonus chips. (Just an example: T10,000 stacks, $40 buy-in. On-time folks get a bonus 1500 chips for a T11,500 stack for $40; Latecomers get a T10,000 for $40, but could pay an extra $10 for the 'bonus' 1,500 chips. Benefit for being on-time is $10 or 1500 chips for free.)
I don't understand why some people think it's an advantage to enter a tournament late and get a full starting stack. By the time the blinds go up, a starting stack in later rounds is much smaller compared to the blinds, and by showing up late, a player forgoes any chance to add chips to their stack by winning pots in the first few levels.
I played in a weekly multi-table tourney that used to put out full stacks for all players, where on one unusual day, one table had 3 players on time, and 6 players that hadn't showed up yet, and it somewhat turned into a race between those 3 players to raise and fold as quickly as possible to blind down the dead stacks at the table -- that wasn't poker. That gave an advantage to those 3 players at that particular table. I have no problem with players showing up late and getting a full stack.
I appreciate the suggestion. However, when people come over, I only have a 30 min window to meet, greet, take entries, have people take their seats, etc. i also often do other bonuses, like food pantry donations, etc... I prefer when people arrive, they can check in, drop off their food (typically have the kids take those), and then register. Once they do so, they can immediately head to their pre-assigned seats to settle in (to speed things along). Once game time hits, and there are no people waiting to register, I distribute on-time and food donation bonuses to the tables (does not take more than 30-45 seconds), I make quick announcements, and then start the clock. There's not a lot of time, and with several (most) of my players showing up 5-10 mins before start time, I'd rather have it done in advance.
Also, I never have my kids hand out actual tourney chips. I have them exchange a token (random bounty chip) to people as they bring their food donations. I then exchange these tokens for the predetermined tourney chip amounts (at the table) once I hand out the on time bonuses. I guess I could have the kids hand out tourney chips, but I like to keep these chips out of pockets, etc. and sometimes my on time bonus is 500 and food pantry is $2500, so I can simply hand out three 1k chips at the table. Easier.
I don't get a lot of late comers or no shows. Maybe one person is late (a level or two) every couple games, and every once in a while I get a no show (very rare). My space is such, that I like people having somewhere to take root once they check in, rather than all milling about, or sitting in a spot, only to have to figure out a new seat and play musical chairs once I push the "generate tables" button.
My thoughts are that everyone starts the tourney at the same time. There is no late reg. You rsvp, you have a seat. You get a stack, it gets placed at your seat. You show up on time (which makes my life easier) then you get a bonus. You show up after the tourney starts OR you sit down and fold every hand OR you go to your car to take an important phone call, either way, your stack gets blinded.
I'm not opposed to changes or improvements (god knows this forum has helped form many of the processes for how my games are run), but this system works smoothly for me. I've never heard anyone ever say my games weren't run smoothly. But ya never know.
I'm also going to take a look at Daves suggestion about dealing out the stacks and taking both blinds out after the button passes. Not a bad idea, so long as it doesn't imbalance the tables too much... what is worse, a random players gets the advantage of an empty seat or the table plays slightly imbalanced...? something to consider for sure.
I never use blinds up for my payouts. I find it easier to have a decent selection of pre determined payout spreadsheets tha I post, based on the entry fee. It's a chart based on number of entrants. Players can easily reference this sheet to find the given payouts depending on the number of entries.
DJ Mack
Flush
It depends - are you a gambler or a poker player? Poker players want as much time as they can get to wait for that monster hand to come along and clean up. Gamblers just hope things work out.
They also avoid the possibility to lose their stack while everyone else is having to defend their stacks and fight the blinds for 2-3 levels. Sure the starting stack is going to be below the average stack at the time they come in but everyone else has had to play it out for 2-3 rounds while the late comer gets to bypass 2-3 rounds of possibly getting felted.
If a player wins the tournament and only had to play through 14 levels while the rest had to play through 17 levels then yes, I think that is not a level playing field. Getting to jump in the tournament at level 3-4 without having to take any risk up to that point is an advantage IMO.
trever
Flush
Whatever you do, keep it simple and apply it consistently. As you can see, opinions on what is most fair vary widely, so pick a solution that you can administer without being too much of a pain.
WedgeRock
Royal Flush
Great point. No one way is best. Each has its advantages and disadvantages. Now that you've heard various options and the rationale behind them, pick one and apply it consistently.
Several comments:
A late player loses something about the flow of the game or something about the game that I haven't figured out how to measure. Even if they get a full stack, once the blinds go up, they are playing with fewer BB than everyone else started with. The later they show, the bigger disadvantage that is.
I used to play in a game where if a player committed to play but was late, that player's stack was blinded. If someone showed up who wasn't committed, they got a full stack. Knowing that, here's what I did. I'd volunteer to have a late player sit next to me -- my left of course -- and take care of blinding them in. I was very reliable at doing that. I was happy to be reliable doing that since it gave me the advantage of getting the last position 2x each round. I also didn't commit to coming. That way, if I was late, I got a full stack. I'd explain that with my job, things could go wrong at the last minute, so I'd be there when or if I showed up.
What I did in both situations is not cheating nor is it unfair. It's simply applying the rules. If you think this is unfair, the rules are what was unfair.
Some are bothered by removing chips from play. If you blind stacks but remove chips from play, that has exactly the same effect on the game as the early bonus/late penalty.
Bottom line: There are pros and cons to every method. No method is more right than another, or more wrong. Tell them the rules in advance and apply them consistently. Do what is easiest to manage. You are the host. Why make your life more complicated?
- NOTHING in unfair if it is clearly spelled out in advance and handled consistently. The perception of unfair varies from one person to the next.
- Under WSOP and TDA rules, only pre-paid players have their stacks blinded. Late registrants receive a full stack. Yes, they are big casinos. It's easy for them to manage. It is unfair in a home game? Back to perception.
- A late penalty or on-time (or early bird) bonus is semantics, different ways of saying the exact same thing. However, perception is no one wants to be penalized. We now have an early bird bonus.
- BGinGA helped me develop a system we used where we put stacks at every seat. If that seat was empty, when the BB came, we removed a SM and a BB and took it out of the game. Those stacks weren't dealt cards. To JButler's point, no one to the right benefits from that system. If you don't see what a huge advantage is to that player to the right of an empty stack, I'm going to think you probably don't understand the significance of position. It's a fairly easy to administer system. It was a little trouble, but not significant. Putting chips up after the game was some trouble, but not that much.
- I changed to an early bird bonus more to help get us started on time and it's worked great for that. It might have cost some players who used to come who don't want to show up late and then receive fewer chips. It's easy to administer. The only thing easier is a full stack for late players.
- You aren't going to make everyone happy no matter how you do this. If you don't believe it, read the previous posts and see how different people see this. Those people aren't likely to tell you that's why they aren't coming, BTW.
A late player loses something about the flow of the game or something about the game that I haven't figured out how to measure. Even if they get a full stack, once the blinds go up, they are playing with fewer BB than everyone else started with. The later they show, the bigger disadvantage that is.
I used to play in a game where if a player committed to play but was late, that player's stack was blinded. If someone showed up who wasn't committed, they got a full stack. Knowing that, here's what I did. I'd volunteer to have a late player sit next to me -- my left of course -- and take care of blinding them in. I was very reliable at doing that. I was happy to be reliable doing that since it gave me the advantage of getting the last position 2x each round. I also didn't commit to coming. That way, if I was late, I got a full stack. I'd explain that with my job, things could go wrong at the last minute, so I'd be there when or if I showed up.
What I did in both situations is not cheating nor is it unfair. It's simply applying the rules. If you think this is unfair, the rules are what was unfair.
Some are bothered by removing chips from play. If you blind stacks but remove chips from play, that has exactly the same effect on the game as the early bonus/late penalty.
Bottom line: There are pros and cons to every method. No method is more right than another, or more wrong. Tell them the rules in advance and apply them consistently. Do what is easiest to manage. You are the host. Why make your life more complicated?
Create an account or login to comment
You must be a member in order to leave a comment
Create account
Create an account and join our community. It's easy!
Log in
Already have an account? Log in here.
Similar threads
