Tourney When to Blind in Players that are Late? (2 Viewers)

[codeman00]

I'm starting a home tournament and am trying to figure out how to manage the blinding in rules when players aren't there at the tournament start. There's two different situations that can arise and it seems like they should be dealt with separately or maybe not?

The first is the player that is committed but just plain late. The second is the person that is committed but found out ahead of time (and called me) that he is being held over for work (or another good excuse) and has noted that he might not be there in time for the start and if he's late enough, might not be there at all.

My original solution was to put everyone's stacks at the table and blind them out from the beginning....no exceptions. But neither of these players have showed up and paid yet.

• Do I place their stack at the table no matter what in both situations?
• Are these two separate situations?
• Do I select a level at where the the blinding in starts or blind in from the beginning?

 

[Wils]

As both are committed, you could give until the first break, or third blind level etc before their chips are either taken off the table or divided amongst the other players.

If someone says they can't make it until the fifth blind level, I'd be prepared to give them until then. If they haven't even contacted your to say why they're late, they're out at the predetermined time.

 

[Pokerdweebz]

Casinos (around my area at least) changed the rule so that no matter when you show up (assuming registration is still open) you get a full stack. That's the rule I implement as well. I set a time for "registration" to be closed depending on the length of the tournament and assuming you show up before that time is over you get a full stack.

 

[JoseRijo]

The easiest solution is the best - let them buy in for a full stack late.

Allow a rebuy in the first few levels (who wants to bust out on the first level and sit around for a couple of hours?) Then their late registration is just like a rebuy.

 

[justsomedude]

The easiest solution is the best - let them buy in for a full stack late.

Allow a rebuy in the first few levels (who wants to bust out on the first level and sit around for a couple of hours?) Then their late registration is just like a rebuy.

I've found that this, along with an on-time bonus and late-entry/rebuys, solves most problems. This way players have two choices:

1) Show up on time and physically be in your seat to get your full stack with on-time bonus chips.
2) Show up late and buyin for a full stack (minus the on-time chip bonus).

- All buyins/rebuys end at my 1st break, which is at the end of the 4th Level
- No late buyin or rebuy gets an on-time chip bonus - just the standard starting stack.

You'll be surprised how many people will get their ass there on time for those bonus chips.

 

[stepup]

The game we have at my house has rebuys through the first break so I allow players to buy in late all the way up to the end of the rebuys period. I'm not sure this is the best way but if works for us.

 

[Wils]

I don't really like the "buy in late and get a full stack" idea. I know that f they're not there, they can't increase their stack through gambling, but everyone else is having to post blinds.

Why should someone have the luxury of turning up late, AND not have to pay blinds?

You've committed, you're in. In just the same way that if you had to leave suddenly, or had a massive attack of the sh*ts and had to leave the table for an hour, you'd be blinded out.

I agree that's not the simplest way, but it seems to me to be the fairest (and avoids situations where people purposefully turn up late just to get a full stack three or four levels in. Shouldn't happen but it does).

That said, we don't start until we have at least X number of people OR a certain time (for example aim for 19:00 start but hard deadline is 19:15 or when we have seven people, whichever comes first). Hasn't been a problem yet.

 

[Jambine]

Casinos (around my area at least) changed the rule so that no matter when you show up (assuming registration is still open) you get a full stack. That's the rule I implement as well. I set a time for "registration" to be closed depending on the length of the tournament and assuming you show up before that time is over you get a full stack.

I'm also seeing this more, and I like it. KISS

Edit: @justsomedude on-time bonus is a truly great idea

 

[WedgeRock]

If you commit, a full stack goes on the table and gets blinded down. All stacks come off the table at the first break, unless you have prepaid. If you prepay (or someone agrees to pay for you if you don't show), your stack stays on. You can earn money if your stack makes it past the bubble, but you don't earn points if you are not playing your stack. We play in a points league, so we wanted to discourage people from buying a stack and not showing just to pick up points. This rule applies to leaving early (it only happened once, when an action player didn't realize he showed up for a limit tournament).

If you cancel less than 24 hours before a tournament or no show, you get negative last place points. This encourages giving the hosts time to find a replacement if you have to decommit. Negative last place points is not a super severe penalty, but it does affect chipstacks at the Championship tournament.

 

[pltrgyst]

IMO, if you want to run a good home game, your primary interest should be fairness to the people who show up on time.

If you allow late buy-ins unblinded, you need to allow add-ons for the people who are already there, IMO.

If you don't do something, people are likely to just start regularly showing up late, knowing they can get a full buy-in. This work at big tournaments in Vegas, but it sucks for home games.

Myself, for my 30 years of home games, I blinded them all from the start of play, and no one ever complained.

 

[courage]

I don't really like the "buy in late and get a full stack" idea. I know that f they're not there, they can't increase their stack through gambling, but everyone else is having to post blinds.

Why should someone have the luxury of turning up late, AND not have to pay blinds?

You've committed, you're in. In just the same way that if you had to leave suddenly, or had a massive attack of the sh*ts and had to leave the table for an hour, you'd be blinded out.

I agree that's not the simplest way, but it seems to me to be the fairest (and avoids situations where people purposefully turn up late just to get a full stack three or four levels in. Shouldn't happen but it does).

That said, we don't start until we have at least X number of people OR a certain time (for example aim for 19:00 start but hard deadline is 19:15 or when we have seven people, whichever comes first). Hasn't been a problem yet.

But it's ok to have their stack be there getting their blinds picked off by other players who are pillaging one or more undefended stacks at their table?

 

[courage]

IMO, if you want to run a good home game, your primary interest should be fairness to the people who show up on time.

If you allow late buy-ins unblinded, you need to allow add-ons for the people who are already there, IMO.

If you don't do something, people are likely to just start regularly showing up late, knowing they can get a full buy-in. This work at big tournaments in Vegas, but it sucks for home games.

Myself, for my 30 years of home games, I blinded them all from the start of play, and no one ever complained.

This was already addressed by on-time bonus chips. Those players already have a 10% advantage over those who show up and get the regular stack.

 

[CraigT78]

But it's ok to have their stack be there getting their blinds picked off by other players who are pillaging one or more undefended stacks at their table?

Yes. It's not fair to the table to be missing a position.

That's how I do it. If you sign up your stack goes on the table and is blinded until the break. If you don't want that to happen, take your name off the sign up and take your chances when you show up late and hope there is an empty seat for your full stack.

*edit for spelling

 

[jbutler]

But it's ok to have their stack be there getting their blinds picked off by other players who are pillaging one or more undefended stacks at their table?

In addition, massive edge is given to player to the direct right of the empty stack. He now has double button, always act later than natural, and as Chris mentioned, has much more opportunity to steal.

That obvious edge given to one player over the rest of the table greatly outweighs any arguable edge given to players permitted to enter late with a full stack.

 

[justsomedude]

This was already addressed by on-time bonus chips. Those players already have a 10% advantage over those who show up and get the regular stack.

And mine is actually 15-20%. So in my T10ks I'll award 1,500 or 2,000 chips, depending on my mood, total turnout, etc.

So, instead of looking at it as a 15-20% on-time "bonus" ... it's effectively a 15-20% "late player penalty," since it encourages 90-95% of my crew to show up on time. Then there is no need for AddOns etc. Late players still show up and buyin short-stacked compared to the rest of the table, if they choose to.

 

[pltrgyst]

But it's ok to have their stack be there getting their blinds picked off by other players who are pillaging one or more undefended stacks at their table?

Yes.

This was already addressed by on-time bonus chips. Those players already have a 10% advantage over those who show up and get the regular stack.

Not to the half of the players players who've lost half of their chips -- including the on-time bonus -- before the late-comers arrive, and are now looking up at newly-seated full stacks.

.

 

[upNdown]

I wonder if the hosts who offer an on-time bonus allow latecomers to buy that bonus for an additional amount?

I'm going to try to get a regular tournament going this summer, so this is an interesting issue to me.
If we're talking about fairness, the early folks have an unfair advantage over the late folks. I know everybody knew the deal coming in, but it still feels like an unfair advantage to me. And my solution would be to allow the lateys to buy that bonus for a prorated amount, if they so choose.
(So if the starting stack is 20k and the buyin is $20, and the early bonus is an extra 2k, would ypu consider selling that 2k to latecomers for an extra $2?)

 

[Pokerdweebz]

If you're running a friendly home game and people are showing up late to get the "advantage" of having a full stack on level 3-4 you don't have a friendly home game. If your home game is a competitive cut throat home game and people are showing up late to get the "advantage" of having a full stack on level 3-4 then why do you care?

The disadvantage for the players not seated to the right of the free stack and for the players not at the same table of any free stacks is way more significant than any perceived advantage that a player gets by getting a full stack and showing up late.

 

[courage]

I wonder if the hosts who offer an on-time bonus allow latecomers to buy that bonus for an additional amount?

Well that would be a colossally stupid idea. What's the benefit for being on time?

 

[justsomedude]

If we're talking about fairness, the early folks have an unfair advantage over the late folks. I know everybody knew the deal coming in, but it still feels like an unfair advantage to me. And my solution would be to allow the lateys to buy that bonus for a prorated amount, if they do choose.

Then you need to allow AddOns for all players... since those folks have been playing for potentially 1-2 hrs. already, compared to the late-arrivals. And that's not fair to the 95% of folks who chose to show up on time.

Look - this isn't the WSOP where you can enter for 5 hours, or re-enter on a 2nd day flight. We're talking about 6-9 hour fun/friendly/social tournaments from beginning to end. Fairness is limited with such strict time limitations, so don't over think it... if you're late, it's your own damn fault. If those players who come in 45 minutes late don't think it's fair that they get less chips for not making it on time, then they'll learn their lesson for the next tourney. Which is really the point of all this. Don't penalize the rest of the players because you want to coddle the one or two guys who can't get their sh*t together, and be in their seat when cards fly. That just makes your tournament look silly, and your players won't respect you as host.

 

[upNdown]

Well that would be a colossally stupid idea. What's the benefit for being on time?

Colossally stupid? You think?
The benefit to being on time is getting more chips for less money. The penalty for being late is either starting with fewer chips, or paying a cash late penalty to start on equal footing.

 

[jbutler]

if you're late, it's your own damn fault. If those players who come in 45 minutes late don't think it's fair that they get less chips for not making it on time, then they'll learn their lesson for the next tourney.

Sure, but what about the unfairness of putting empty stacks on the table to all players other than the one who's seated to the immediate right of the empty stack? I don't see how that's not massively unfair to the players who did choose to show up on time.

 

[justsomedude]

The penalty for being late is either starting with fewer chips, or paying a cash late penalty to start on equal footing.

Which is essentially telling your players who arrived on time, that there's no benefit to arriving on time... except for 10-20 bucks.

This is a bad idea. At least in my opinion.

 

[courage]

Colossally stupid? You think?

Well. Yeah. These are not new ideas. Casinos and bazillions of home game hosts have hashed these out before. I'd challenge anyone to reinvent the wheel and come up with some great new ideas on this issue. Your solution penalizes the on-time players.

Putting stacks out is also a hassle, and they must be guarded against shady players who could steal chips from them between hands. @JoseRijo had it right imo.

 

[justsomedude]

Sure, but what about the unfairness of putting empty stacks on the table to all players other than the one who's seated to the immediate right of the empty stack? I don't see how that's not massively unfair to the players who did choose to show up on time.

Maybe I missed that in the thread, but I am not a fan of seating/blinding empty stacks. However, I have done it in rare/specific circumstances. I did it this weekend for my BBQ tourney when a player texted me before the bonus cut-off, telling me he was running 5-10 minutes late, guaranteed me he would pay his buyin, and wanted his 2k chip bonus.

I fronted his $45 buyin to the pot and seated his stack. He happened to walk in during the 2nd hand, without being blinded at all. He gave me his $45, sat down, and proceeded to play. No one had a problem with this arrangement. Had he not arrived by the end of the first level, his stack would have been removed from the table.

That said, my rule, in general, is to not seat stacks without a player. Be there, or don't play.

 

[jbutler]

Maybe I missed that in the thread, but I am not a fan of seating/blinding empty stacks. However, I have done it in rare/specific circumstances. I did it this weekend for my BBQ tourney when a player texted me before the bonus cut-off, telling me he was running 5-10 minutes late, guaranteed me he would pay his buyin, and wanted his 2k chip bonus.

I fronted his $45 buyin to the pot and seated his stack. He happened to walk in during the 2nd hand, without being blinded at all. Had he not arrived by the end of the first level, his stack would have been removed from the table.

That said, my rule, in general, is to not seat stacks without a player. Be there, or don't play.

No, looks like I misunderstood - I thought you were among the advocates for blinding stacks down. I agree that it's the best option to just let people buy for starting stack. On time bonuses only make it that much more obvious that it's the easiest way.

 

[TheBigTater]

I guess I'm old fashion, plus play mainly cash games & hardly any tournaments, but if you ain't in you seat when the tourney starts you ain't in the game (I also don't like rebuys & addons either). I'm a freezeout kind of guy. There isn't any fair way to allow folks into the tournament after play has started that doesn't give either the players at the table (blinding off dead money/stacks) or the late comer (sitting in with a full stack at round 3) an advantage.

I know, life/shit happens and sometimes people are held up. But if we're striving to be fair just refund anyone that already paid/can't get there on time and go on with the game.

 

[upNdown]

I guess I'm old fashion, plus play mainly cash games & hardly any tournaments, but if you ain't in you seat when the tourney starts you ain't in the game (I also don't like rebuys & addons either). I'm a freezeout kind of guy. There isn't any fair way to allow folks into the tournament after play has started that doesn't give either the players at the table (blinding off dead money/stacks) or the late comer (sitting in with a full stack at round 3) an advantage.

I know, life/shit happens and sometimes people are held up. But if we're striving to be fair just refund anyone that already paid/can't get there on time and go on with the game.

I guess this all presumes a good host has a robust player pool, and maybe that is where I should focus my efforts.

 

[TheBigTater]

I guess this all presumes a good host has a robust player pool, and maybe that is where I should focus my efforts.

How much advance notice do your players have of the tournament starting time? If you have more than 1 players habitually late then you need to adjust you starting times and/or look at finding more players.

Or just play host cash games.

 

[justsomedude]

I guess this all presumes a good host has a robust player pool, and maybe that is where I should focus my efforts.

Not necessarily, it's just about mutual respect. If you let your players walk all over you with arriving 90-minutes late, and pushing for AddOns, etc., then they'll learn that they run the show.

If you set hard rules and enforce them, then they'll quickly learn to get their ass to your game on time if they want to play. And all of your players will respect you more as a result.