Tourney What would you rather..? (1 Viewer)

[Wils]

The scenario - a 3 hour game with 100 bb, or a 3 hour game with 200 bb? NB either way, the game remains the same length.

The former has longer rounds and less chips, therefore potentially more action (less chips = greater risks), the latter has more chips until things even out at the 2 hr mark (approx), therefore potentially less action (which might get offset by more chips = looser play).

NB don't decry the length - it's what we're stuck with for now.

 

[BGinGA]

Depends a lot on the two structures (twice the chips for just 10-15 extra minutes is pointless, for example), but in general, more starting bb is better over identical time frames -- given reasonable blind level times and increases in both.

 

[ChaosRock]

I agree with Dave...

Comparing those two options, the two curves of average big blinds will only match at the end or the tourney, since they are designed to end at the same time frame... In other words, the bigger starting stacks will always have a larger average number big blinds in play until the very last round (roughly)...

So yeah, I'd definitely prefer a larger starting stack given the same tourney length.

 

[derekdd23]

IT'S ALWAYS MOAR FRACKIN CHIPS!

This is a poker chip forum after all...

 

[Poker Zombie]

If your game has a lot of limpers to the flop, I'd give them 200 BB. A few levels before they get short-stacked gives them at least some money's worth before they have to tighten up.

At the same time, levels cannot be so short that one story-telling dealer (in self dealt games) can burn half the level shuffling. In my games, I've found 12 minute blinds to be the absolute shortest time that I can stomach.

I currently use 5 different blind structures. They vary based on the chip set, but all are designed to run the same amount of time - 4.5 hours with breaks.

Zombie Foodies: 240 BB, Avg increase between levels 39%, 12 min levels
Zombie Foodies No-Rebuy Event: 600 BB, Avg increase between levels 39%, 12 min levels
Zombie World Edition: 500 BB, Avg increase between levels 79%, 20 min levels
Zombie Monte Carlos: 500 BB, Avg increase between levels 41%, 13 min levels
Unnamed Set: 200 BB, Avg increase between levels 85%, 25 min levels

Actual structures available upon request.

I have no real preference between the blind structures. Adapting is a part of poker, and I've found my best (and worst) players are just as good regardless of structure. I don't hate big jumps when there is plenty of time between levels, provided they're fairly consistent. You can have the best of both worlds in that respect: 200 BB, longer levels, but bigger increases between levels.

 

[Wils]

Depends a lot on the two structures (twice the chips for just 10-15 extra minutes is pointless, for example), but in general, more starting bb is better over identical time frames -- given reasonable blind level times and increases in both.

True. The difference between the blind lengths would mean the 200bb game has 100 bb more to begin with (obviously) and this will lessen as the game progresses until roughly 2/3 through - at which point they break even, then for the last third the 100bb game has a slight bb edge (because the blind increases come round less often).

Funnily enough I ran a 200bb tourney a month or so ago with a starting big blind of 250, where the increase was a pretty uniform 40% from the get-go, and the bust-outs happened quite regularly (no all-in fests) which takes me to my comment at the foot of my post...

IT'S ALWAYS MOAR FRACKIN CHIPS!

This is a poker chip forum after all...

Who told you that?

Adapting is a part of poker, and I've found my best (and worst) players are just as good regardless of structure. I don't hate big jumps when there is plenty of time between levels, provided they're fairly consistent.

Yeah. I'd be interested to see what the perfect tourney would look like on a graph, where the X axis is "time elapsed" and the Y axis is "players busted out." For fun(!) I've done that with a couple of previous tourneys and I can see that nobody busts out in the first 1 hour - 2 hours, then there's a flurry of activity, then a quiet time, then a flurry again.

I'm thinking that the "perfect" game would be represented by a fairly straight 45 degree line, which would mean people are busting out at regular intervals (though I'd expect the line to flatten out a little coming up to the bubble).

NB these few tourneys have|been really small scale (5-7 people) so not nearly a large enough sample set to get any useful info from, it was just for shizzles.

 

[Poker Zombie]

It just so happens, I have such graphs. Give me a few, and I'll convert the excel files into .jpgs so I can post them.

Note: the graphs will be bell-curved shaped. The knockouts will be "per level" and not "total".

Enough chatter, time to convert...

 

[Poker Zombie]

Conversion complete!

For all graphs, the Red line is the number of players knocked out (X axis) and at what level (Y axis). The green line is the trendline.

The first graph is the Zombie Foodies set. Last chance to rebuy is at level 9, hence the spike. You do not need to be felted to rebuy, though you forfeit any chips you have remaining, so there are few short stacks going into level 10 (hence the dip). Level 25 does not exist, it shows how many games have been played on this structure.

240 BB, Avg increase between levels 39%, 12 min levels

Next we have the Foodies in the No Rebuy event, our Zombie Poker Classic. Again, level 25 shows the number of times this structure has been used.

600 BB, Avg increase between levels 39%, 12 min levels

Next we have the Zombie Monte Carlo set. Rebuy period ends at level 8 here. Because these are the only chips used on Ladies night (a far less aggressive game), the "last chance to rebuy" spike is muted. Again, Level 25 is games played.

500 BB, Avg increase between levels 41%, 13 min levels

Next we have the Zombie World Edition chipset. Last chance to rebuy, Level 6. The graph cut off the level 25, but this has been used 3 times so far.

500 BB, Avg increase between levels 79%, 20 min levels

Finally the still unnamed set. It's only been used once, so it's a really shallow data set. However, I do like that the way KO's are shaping up to be pretty evenly spread out. Last chance to rebuy, Level 4. The bubble broke in this event at level 8 - I suspect that's why the slight dip is there.

200 BB, Avg increase between levels 85%, 25 min levels

I hope these graphs are what you were looking for.

 

[detroitdad]

or just play cash?

 

[Wils]

Conversion complete!


I hope these graphs are what you were looking for.

Yes - thanks - I appreciate the effort.

 

[Mojo1312]

Here is an example of the two options. (Freeze-out tournament with 7 players)

20,000 starting stacks with 25 min. levels

50/100
100/200
200/400
400/800
700/1500
1500/3000
3000/6000 -- 23.33BB's in play
5000/10000

10,000 starting stacks with 15 min. levels

50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
200/400
300/600
400/800
500/1000
700/1400
1000/2000
1500/3000 -- 23.33BB's in play
2000/4000

 

[BGinGA]

Here is an example of the two options. (Freeze-out tournament with 7 players)

20,000 starting stacks with 25 min. levels

50/100
100/200
200/400
400/800
700/1500
1500/3000
3000/6000 -- 23.33BB's in play
5000/10000

10,000 starting stacks with 15 min. levels

50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
200/400
300/600
400/800
500/1000
700/1400
1000/2000
1500/3000 -- 23.33BB's in play
2000/4000

No, those are not the options. OP stated bigger stacks with shorter levels vs smaller stacks with longer levels. Your examples do not follow that standard.

 

[Mojo1312]

FMP:

7 player Freeze-out tournament.

10,000 starting stacks with 30 min. levels
(Longer rounds, less chips)

50/100
100/200
200/400
400/800
700/1500
1500/3000 -- 23.33BB's in play
3000/6000
5000/10000

20,000 starting stacks with 14 min. levels
(Shorter levels, twice the BB's)

50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
200/400
300/600
400/800
500/1000
700/1400
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000
3000/6000 -- 23.33BB's in play

 

[Wils]

Thanks - I'm fine with the specific details of the structure though. I'm just asking generally what people prefer out of the two.

 

[Gobbs]

FMP:

7 player Freeze-out tournament.

10,000 starting stacks with 30 min. levels
(Longer rounds, less chips)

50/100
100/200
200/400
400/800
700/1500
1500/3000 -- 23.33BB's in play
3000/6000
5000/10000

20,000 starting stacks with 14 min. levels
(Shorter levels, twice the BB's)

50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
200/400
300/600
400/800
500/1000
700/1400
1000/2000
1500/3000
2000/4000
3000/6000 -- 23.33BB's in play

Rounding to 15 minutes because I'm lazy.

Both blind structures basically increase about 100 percent every 30 minutes. Two hours into game play, you're actually starting a slightly smaller blind level with the bigger stack structure. You get to 23.33 BBs in play 30 minutes sooner in the smaller stack structure. Give me the big stack.