Tourney WCB (8) Main Event Tourney Structure feedback (1 Viewer)

[Jeff]

I'm looking for suggestions as to how to tweak the WCB Main Event. I've been happy with almost everything at WCB, with the exception of finding the right tournament structure. I'd like to settle on one that I don't need to keep tweaking each year.

Traditionally, I've opened the doors on Saturday at 10 or 11 am after breakfast, and started the tourney at 1. This is because it allows cash games to get started at a reasonable hour.

Traditionally, I've started with $12,000 starting stacks. Seems to be a middle ground to me.

Up until last year, I did 20 minute blinds. The first hour was always leisurely. The WCB6 the tourney went forever, so for WCB7 I shortened the blinds after the first hour. The feedback I got last year is that it turned into too much of a shove fest due to the 15 minute blinds and the blind progression. I didn't make it too long, so I don't have so much of an opinion.

I'm looking for input on the following:
1. How long would you like the tournament to run?
2. I've attached the starting stack breakdown. Does this make sense? Or would you start with more/less?
3. I've attached the blinds structure. For all of you that are blinds experts, what would you suggest?

The other thing is that it looks as though there is going to be little room for locals this year. Is this the year that main event goes to a mixed game tourney?

My only hard rule is no antes. I hate those.

@moose @k9dr @JacNoK @Payback @inca911 @Trihonda @tommythecat @detroitdad @ChaosRock @Ronoh @lnlver @Ben @Uzi @BukNaked36 @Highlander3 @SeekTheGrail @Dr.O @Dan2330

 

[Trihonda]

Number one, antes slow down the game. Especially in self dealt affairs.

Two, I'm flying at 33,000 ft right now, and will provide more detailed feedback soon.

For starters, I didn't realize the blinds were shortened last year, but in hindsight, I felt like it progressed super fast. I recall thinking that within an orbit I went from medium sized stack to shove-ready. Ya, the 15 minute blinds explains a lot.

15 minute blinds are tough... a full table, and you'll get the blinds going up 2x before it gets back to you (that's not right), and if you're short handed, you get socked with crazy increasing blinds more frequently...

I would personally prefer the 20 min blinds stay constant. If you reduce them, do it by a minute...

 

[Payback]

I would agree with points raised, that WCB6 ran way to long (I was dealing that table and it finished up if memory serves me right, past midnight). Whereas last year it felt like a turbo tournament. WCB 6 run time was probably 10 hours with the breaks in there, made it close to 12 hours. WCB7 was probably around the 6 hour mark run time. Personally I'd like to see it split the difference and run 7-8 hours. You could do that by making the rounds shorter, or by adding a few more levels to smooth out the jumps (my choice wouldl be the latter).

One thing I would change that I think was added during WCB7 was the antes. We did them last year, even though you hate them? Without a dedicated dealer it was too complicated trying to get a whole table to ante. I think that's part of the reason why the structure felt even shorter than it actually was is that 1/3 of the time was spent collecting antes, if you have dealers no problem with the antes, but if its self dealt nix them.

If you want to keep all levels at 15 minutes then add the BG 25/75 round as level 2 and it shouldn't impact the first hour too much.

Personally I'd love to see a mixed tournament for the Saturday make its way into the Midwest tournaments (Limit only in the form of HORSE? HOE? would be my choice). One thing to consider is if you go this route that you are going to be looking at 8 max tables, vs. what you've had in the past at 10 so you are going to be able to accomadate less overall.

Edit: Funny PCF realizes that Erik and I are in different countries ATM...

 

[Jeff]

There's normally an early break, then dinner in there, so factor that into your memory. They're where the "pause" checkmarks are.

I put the ante's in trying to move the tournament along, even though I hate them. I might have over adjusted I want them out. One year with antes is enough.

 

[Trihonda]

Ya, ant

There's normally an early break, then dinner in there, so factor that into your memory. They're where the "pause" checkmarks are.

I put the ante's in trying to move the tournament along, even though I hate them. I might have over adjusted I want them out. One year with antes is enough.

Ya, the antes actually slow things down a lot.

I played till the end (with Bill dealing) the previous year, and I do not recall it running until midnight. I thought it was 10:30-11ish. I could look at the time stamp on my trophy pic. Yup, confirmed. We took the trophy photo (a few minutes after the tourney) at 10:59pm. Considering that, how much of a change do you need? As stated, those who play deep (cashing), probably don't mind playing later. The journey is better for everyone involved. You don't want people feeling the fast structure contrinbited to their demise.

Maybe if anything, reduce the blinds to 19min mid, then 18 mins in later levels.

Ok, plane is landing...

Im on a Norwegian airline, hence the flag... .

 

[Ronoh]

My only hard rule is no antes. I hate those.

Yet your structure generator shows antes

First for starting stacks, that's easy. Figure out how total chips you want in play at the end (if breakdown is accurate in the above pic I would go with 750-800k) and divide by the number of people playing. Make starting stacks as big as ya can.

Then don't worry about time just get a breakdown you like. For example

25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
200/400
300/600
400/800
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
1200/2400
1500/3000
2000/4000
2500/5000
3000/6000
4000/8000
5000/10000
6000/12000
8000/16000
10000/20000
12000/24000
15000/30000

Once you have the structure you like then you figure out what time you want the game to end. If you want it to start at 1 and end at 8 that's seven hours. Figure out however long the total breaks will be and subtract it from seven hours to get your actual playing time. Take that number and divide it by the number of levels in your structure to figure out the minutes per level.

In other words don't alter your structure to fit your minutes per level, alter your minutes per level to fit your structure.

 

[lnlver]

How many entries are you expecting? How many places will you pay?

 

[k9dr]

I just plug the variables into Blind Valet and choose approximately how long I want it to last and it calculates the structure.

 

[Jeff]

Yet your structure generator shows antes

First for starting stacks, that's easy. Figure out how total chips you want in play at the end (if breakdown is accurate in the above pic I would go with 750-800k) and divide by the number of people playing. Make starting stacks as big as ya can.

Then don't worry about time just get a breakdown you like. For example

25/50
50/100
75/150
100/200
150/300
200/400
300/600
400/800
600/1200
800/1600
1000/2000
1200/2400
1500/3000
2000/4000
2500/5000
3000/6000
4000/8000
5000/10000
6000/12000
8000/16000
10000/20000
12000/24000
15000/30000

Once you have the structure you like then you figure out what time you want the game to end. If you want it to start at 1 and end at 8 that's seven hours. Figure out however long the total breaks will be and subtract it from seven hours to get your actual playing time. Take that number and divide it by the number of levels in your structure to figure out the minutes per level.

In other words don't alter your structure to fit your minutes per level, alter your minutes per level to fit your structure.

Re: antes, I went against my own preferences to shorten the tournament, what I posted was last years tournament. Not gonna do it again, I'm changing it.

All good advice. Which leads me back to Q1. Do you have a preference for how long the tournament should be? Breaks will be approx. 1 hour dinner break (could be less..45 minutes?, I guess), 15 minute break early on = 1.25 hours breaks.

 

[Jeff]

There will be 40 people playing the tourney and we will pay 5 places for the main pool. Did this last year, that seemed fine.

Example:

Main Pool

Main Pool Payout:
1st Place: 40%
2nd Place: 25%
3rd Place: 20%
4th Place: 10%
5th Place: 5%


The secondary pool will depend on how many people participate


Secondary Pool
Payout: Players 1-10 people > 11-20 people > 20 + people
1st Place: 50% > 50% > 40%
2nd Place: 30% > 25% > 25%
3rd Place: 20% > 15% > 20%
4th Place: 0% > 10% > 10%
5th Place: 0% > 0% > 5%

 

[Trihonda]

Re: antes, I went against my own preferences to shorten the tournament, what I posted was last years tournament. Not gonna do it again, I'm changing it.

All good advice. Which leads me back to Q1. Do you have a preference for how long the tournament should be? Breaks will be approx. 1 hour dinner break (could be less..45 minutes?, I guess), 15 minute break early on = 1.25 hours breaks.

Again, I just don't see there was an issue the previous year... We're there complaints? If you're at the final table, in the hunt, are you really upset how long the game lasts? The folks who busted earlier are probably already playing cash, so they likely don't care if the tourneys is lasting longer, do they?

I get there's that time period between the final table and the end where the few people who bust would like to play cash, but you'll have that regardless. If we end at 10:30, and play cash 'till 4am, peoeple are still getting an opportunity to play cash.

Maybe another idea would be to look at the payouts? Those few FT people that bust, might not feel so left out for a while, if they were ITM? I like a tourney with decent payouts, but its always a balance between making a huge payday for the top few, or spreading out the winnings for more folks to walk away feeling like winners. When I host single table tournies, I like to pay the top three spots 3rd, money back, 1-2nd get the rest, etc. two table games usually pay top 4 spots. That's 33% and 20% payouts respectively. Three table games, I usually pay 5 spots minimum (17% of the field). If I were doing a 4 table game, I'd try for 6 places paid. Even if it were just money back.

I know, I know, there are some who will scoff at this idea. However, the secondary pool (listed by Jeff) seems to follow my logic, but the primary seems more top heavy (only 11-12% of the players getting paid). I know, 12% is not horrible or anything, but it's just an idea. Going with paying top 6 makes it an even 15% of the field ITM?

I get that there are the gambly types who want to throw it all on black for a big win, the top few people reap all the gains. Etc.. as I said, I understand the balancing act between catering to those folks who want the big payout, or spreading out the field of folks who could consider themselves to have cashed. Hell, I bet there are a few meetup attendees who would vote for winner take all, lol... . My priorities are not coming to a meet up for a big score. And as someone who has won this event, I'd have gladly taken $10-15 less at the top to payout the bubble.

Back to the blind level times... the previous year, I was arguably sort stacked longer, and all in more times that anyone else, and I never felt like the structure contributed negatively. Last year, the structure was a luck fest, which was frustrating. I'd rather play a longer game, where skill plays a bigger role than luck. Just my preference. Either way, the event and tourney will be stellar.

Any chance you get to play a tourney with the Kings Club chips, you're already walking away a winner.

 

[Ronoh]

All good advice. Which leads me back to Q1. Do you have a preference for how long the tournament should be? Breaks will be approx. 1 hour dinner break (could be less..45 minutes?, I guess), 15 minute break early on = 1.25 hours breaks.

Do you know what time 6 and 7 ended? If you can figure it out, if 6 went too long and 7 wasn't long enough then shoot for an ending time in the middle

As much as I would love the meetup main event to be some type of mix I feel like it almost has to stay NLHE to cater to everyone (yeah, I can't believe I just said that either). If someone was ever to attempt the switch I would say the inaugural change could/should be no bigger than a rotation of NLHE/PLO.

Having said that, I do like the recent trend of a non-holdem/non-satellite warm up tournament on either Thursday or Friday (SOHE-BBotB, Rodeo-S@P).

 

[Payback]

If the event went to a mixed game structure 8 players at 5 tables and you paid the entire final table it would be 20% of the field. Regardless I think 15% (6@40 players) should be the minimum as that has been the structure that the wsop has switched to. In home games I'm even more in favor of more payouts/ flatter payouts as it keeps thing more "friendly" since there are more winners. Even if 8th just got their buy in back they probably will collect a bounty or two along the way and have a few bucks profit which is always nice.

Obviously I'm playing regardless of the decision and so will everyone else, so do what you think is best.

 

[Ronoh]

If the event went to a mixed game structure 8 players at 5 tables and you paid the entire final table it would be 20% of the field. Regardless I think 15% (6@40 players) should be the minimum as that has been the structure that the wsop has switched to. In home games I'm even more in favor of more payouts/ flatter payouts as it keeps thing more "friendly" since there are more winners. Even if 8th just got their buy in back they probably will collect a bounty or two along the way and have a few bucks profit which is always nice.

Obviously I'm playing regardless of the decision and so will everyone else, so do what you think is best.

I'm fine with a friendly payout structure but I'm pretty sure you and Jeff have different things in mind when you guys say "mixed games".

The other thing is that it looks as though there is going to be little room for locals this year. Is this the year that main event goes to a mixed game tourney?

While I could be mistaken I don't think Jeff had a limit tournament and/or any stud games in mind when he said this

 

[detroitdad]

Regardless I think 15% (6@40 players) should be the minimum as that has been the structure that the wsop has switched to. In home games I'm even more in favor of more payouts/ flatter payouts as it keeps thing more "friendly" since there are more winners

This sounds pretty good. When I do host a tourney I tend to do something similar.

 

[Payback]

I'm fine with a friendly payout structure but I'm pretty sure you and Jeff have different things in mind when you guys say "mixed games".


While I could be mistaken I don't think Jeff had a limit tournament and/or any stud games in mind when he said this

You know me I'll play whatever, but traditional mixes are pretty awesome in tournament form.

 

[Ronoh]

You know me I'll play whatever, but traditional mixes are pretty awesome in tournament form.

I agree but even in an all PCF meetup you're gonna have a large percentage of them who never play limit and/or never play any stud games. That's why I say if anyone does eventually turn the corner on switching up the Main, alternating NLHE and PLO is the logical first step IMO.

 

[Dan2330]

Jeff- Any thoughts on putting a dealer/player at each table? I used to play in tourney league in which each table had a dedicated dealer that played also and got paid $5 from each player for doing the dealing. Only drawback to this is that the dealer has to stay and deal until the table breaks, even if they get knocked out. The nice thing with the dedicated dealer/player is the shorter blind levels and even the ante's are not that big of a thing then since the dealer can keep the game moving along and monitors over the action. Perhaps something to consider as long as each player is fine putting another few bucks in for dealer tips.

 

[Jeff]

Its an idea for the tourney. I play in a league that gives people a discount on the buy-in if they act as dedicated dealer. We had dealers come in last time (from a local charitable games) for the cash games and it was a disaster.

 

[Payback]

I can handle playing/dealing for one table if needed. I like the part of discounted buy ins

 

[Ronoh]

We had dealers come in last time (from a local charitable games) for the cash games and it was a disaster.

More cards...

 

[Jeff]

More cards...

Over and over.

 

[Trihonda]

I think a dealer would speed up the process, but Antes, even having a dealer, will still be slower. I like the idea of a dedicated dealer (with a discount). But that would certainly add to the logistics. I think self dealt is something that most people understand, and given a decent shuffling strategy, I think can be fairly quick.

 

[Ben]

Last year's event did seem a little speedy (even though I won it. ) I don't even notice time passing (or not) while I'm playing and I was pretty shocked to look at my phone at the end and see that it was only like 9:00. Conversely the S@P main event I think has gone to midnight+ the last 2 years and has really seemed to wear on some of the final tableists, particularly the locals who aren't acclimated to the no-sleep degen bonanza.

Maybe somewhere in between those two (10:30-ish?) would be a good target end time?

 

[Ronoh]

I think a dealer would speed up the process, but Antes, even having a dealer, will still be slower.

Jeff has said there will be no antes.

I would be fine with dealing my table.

 

[Jeff]

I hate antes. I don't know what I was thinking! I also (personally) don't want to play a tournament until midnight, which will be no problem, since I'm usually out 5 levels into it unless there's some mighty suckout (@Uzi ). That normally puts me at the cash table at about 4 pm as far as I can figure.

BTW, @Ben 10-10:30 does seem to be a good end time!

 

[Trihonda]

Jeff has said there will be no antes.

.

Yup, but Dan had brought up the idea of antes again.

I would also have no problem dealing my table for a bit. Granted, being a dedicated dealer for a 7+ hour tourney is a lot of work, and can be a distraction from playing the game in lieu of running the game. If you went the route of dedicated dealers, I'd suggest allowing the dedicated dealers to have alternates in case they want to take a break for a hand or two (use the bathroom, grab a beverage, etc...). Or.. like I said, I think self dealt is completely fine.

 

[Trihonda]

10-10:30 does seem to be a good end time!

Then, I'd go with the structure from the previous year. We ended between 10:30p and 10:50p, and that was after we chopped and played it out for bragging rights. It seemed like we were getting so short compared to the blinds, I think it could have (should have) ended earlier, but couldn't have gone on any longer.