Tourney Was this a fair chop? (1 Viewer)

[upNdown]

I know the general sentiment here is anti-chop, but IF you were gonna chop, was this fair?
In a NH cardroom yesterday, my favorite tournament structure - 30k stacks, 25/50 30 minute blinds - $90 buyin. There were about 105 entrants. When we got down to 8, they started talking chop. I had about a third of the chips, so I was the clear chipleader, buy a lot. First place was $2400, second place was $1600, third was $900 etc. They prposed a chop where I got $1500, they split the rest, less $500, which we played for. I took it. When we got down to heads up, our stacks were even, so when the nice old guy who I had doubled up a couple of times asked to chop the last $500, I agreed to that too, and walked away with $1750.
My thinking on accepting the main chop was just a sort of a bird in the hand thing. Getting practically second place money (with the best chance to win another $500) eliminated the variance - I thought I got a fair deal. Think it was fair?

 

[detroitdad]

I'm a fan of chopping. This sounds fair to me

 

[Jambine]

I'm all for a chop if it's equitable. You have 1/3 of the chips, you should ask for 1/3 of the prize.

 

[ChipEnvy]

There are people much more versed in ICM than me... However 2nd place money guaranteed sounds good to me. I'd have taken it.

 

[TexRex]

Chops make a lot of sense once the structure becomes a luckfest. I can't tell from your description if it was at the point yet. A lot of times players don't chop when they should. They hold out hope for the higher payout. Sometimes they wind up with nothing or way less than a chop would have given them.

If I'm down to 2 players and stacks are even, and there is still enough structure left (100+ BB still on the table), then to me the decision gets down to the quality of the opponent. If I know I'm way better, I'll play for a bit hoping to out-maneuver him. If the opponent is unknown, or I don't yet know his quality, I'll take the chop.

I see poker as a long-term deal. Any time you can walk away a winner is good. But I'm usually the last guy to suggest a chop.

 

[ChaosRock]

Hard to opine on the fairness of the first chop without knowing all the prizes and all the stacks of the 8 remaining players.

Once heads-up and stack are even, 50/50 is fair if you think there's no edge on either side.

 

[TexRex]

Jambine, the problem with a chop based on the percentage of chips is if it is more than 1st, it will never happen. A chop only works if those at the very bottom have something to gain by chopping. If their situation doesn't improve, they have no reason to chop and will instead fight.

 

[Trihonda]

If there are a few short stacks at the table, especially 8 handed, I wouldn't have entertained a chop untill you're down to a smaller player pool remaining.

My general way to calculate a fair equity chop is this: let's say you're three handed. Prizes are 3rd = $400, 2nd = $750, 1st is $1250. All three are automatically guarantee $400, so you're playing/chopping the remaining monies (or $1200 in this case). If you have $50% of the chips in play, you should expect $600 + the $400. So your chop would be $1000. You're giving up $200 to lock in a nice win. If all the stacks are even, then it's easy maff.

skill, stack sizes, and stacks relative to the blinds are all major factors. If an opponent is very short stacked, I rarely agree to a chop.

 

[Poker Zombie]

I always chop when the game stops being fun (luckfest, so late that I'm tired and done, etc), or when the payout structure is too top heavy. That said, if I'm offered 2nd place money and it's game on for $500 more, id be hard pressed to turn it down.

 

[Ronoh]

Jambine, the problem with a chop based on the percentage of chips is if it is more than 1st, it will never happen. A chop only works if those at the very bottom have something to gain by chopping. If their situation doesn't improve, they have no reason to chop and will instead fight.

First will never get an offer of more than first and those at the bottom will always improve in a chop unless those chopping don't understand how to chop.

Per first, if the chip-chop has the chip leader getting more than the first place prize money their prize offer is dropped down to the total of first place.

Per last, the bottoms will never be offered less than the current prize level as you don't figure in the chip-chop until shaving off the current prize level for all parties. With eight left if the top eight prizes combine for a total pot of $7000 with 8th place getting $100 the chop numbers are based on a pot of $6200 with each players chip to pot percentage being added to the current $100 prize level.

 

[upNdown]

Hard to opine on the fairness of the first chop without knowing all the prizes and all the stacks of the 8 remaining players.

Once heads-up and stack are even, 50/50 is fair if you think there's no edge on either side.

Fair question. I can't tell you for sure, because it was late and I was getting bleary, which is one of the reasons I chopped. They looked fairly even to me. The others chopped evenly - I had it wrong; the chop happened when there were SEVEN of us left. So I got $1500, the otherssix took $800 each. I would guess the other prizes were something like:
$2400
$1600
$900
$600
$300
$250
I know that doesn't quite add up, but it was something like that.

 

[TexRex]

My experience is that if the chip leader wants first place money to chop, someone isn't going to agree to a chop. I can't recall ever seeing that happen with more than 3, and then it only happens when first has more than half the chips and the other two are chopping 2nd and 3rd.

 

[upNdown]

I always chop when the game stops being fun (luckfest, so late that I'm tired and done, etc), or when the payout structure is too top heavy. That said, if I'm offered 2nd place money and it's game on for $500 more, id be hard pressed to turn it down.

I guess that's one of the things that troubles me - it didn't quite seem like a luckfest yet, but maybe that's just from my perspective, because I had a shit-load of chips. Honestly, I was tired, and I was getting excited about getting the cash in hand. So maybe I chopped for the wrong reasons, and I'm trying to rationalize that it was fair.
But it wasn't shove shove shove yet. There were 3.3 million chips in play, blinds were 15k/30k with a 3k ante.

 

[namsupak]

Time is a major factor for me. If we are talking chop and save me a few hours of time I am game. I think what you guys did sounds fair and I like how you played for the 500. You can get a little more loose and creative since you have a guaranteed 1500.

 

[TexRex]

upNdown -- definitely sounds like a good chop! With that many players, anything could happen. Then you got another $250 on top of that -- good job!

 

[upNdown]

upNdown -- definitely sounds like a good chop! With that many players, anything could happen. Then you got another $250 on top of that -- good job!

Thanks. I've only been playing cards for 2-3 years, and only tournaments for about a year. I'd guess I've played fewer than 20 multi-table tournaments and this was my biggest cash yet, so I'm pretty happy about it.

 

[Ronoh]

Fair question. I can't tell you for sure, because it was late and I was getting bleary, which is one of the reasons I chopped. They looked fairly even to me. The others chopped evenly - I had it wrong; the chop happened when there were SEVEN of us left. So I got $1500, the otherssix took $800 each. I would guess the other prizes were something like:
$2400
$1600
$900
$600
$300
$250
I know that doesn't quite add up, but it was something like that.

Yeah you're missing a payout in there but if the total pot is correct at $6800 with the bottom payout being $250 your chip-chop value at the time of the chop was right around $1680 in a full chop and $1516 when factoring out the extra $500 being played for. Basically the offer they made to you was nearly dead on.

 

[Ellasdaddy]

I'm pretty sure I'd have accepted both chops under the same circumstances.

 

[Pokerdweebz]

http://www.icmpoker.com/icmcalculator/

 

[ChaosRock]

Fair question. I can't tell you for sure, because it was late and I was getting bleary, which is one of the reasons I chopped. They looked fairly even to me. The others chopped evenly - I had it wrong; the chop happened when there were SEVEN of us left. So I got $1500, the otherssix took $800 each. I would guess the other prizes were something like:
$2400
$1600
$900
$600
$300he rest
$250
I know that doesn't quite add up, but it was something like that.

Based on $6,800 total prize with $6,300 being chopped and assuming you had 33% and the other 66% spread equally among the other 6 players, your share using ICM would be around $1,395. So the $1,500 so pretty fair.

The ICM calculation is a little more complicated than what @Ronoh is using above. You can get a sense of what ICM theory is here: http://www.pokerology.com/lessons/icm/

For small tourneys, back of the envelop is fine. For higher prizes, I recommend the use of ICM apps.

 

[BUBBLE]

As long as you are happy with the deal. Then that's what really matters. I have seen a chop talk turned down where the chip leader went out four hands later

 

[detroitdad]

I base chopping one of there is a cash game readily available

 

[upNdown]

http://www.icmpoker.com/icmcalculator/

Cool. These numbers aren't exact, but I think they're pretty close.

 

[Joe E.]

While yes, you may have been able to hold out for a couple more bucks, you minimized variance and kept the table from playing against "the jerk who didn't take the chop." Often the guy with a lot of chips who laughs at the chop gets felted much sooner than his ego anticipated (see post #26). Unless you play for a living, I have a hard time arguing against a relatively fair chop wanted by the majority of a short handed table. That said, nice bink sir!

I base chopping one of there is a cash game readily available

this is also a big factor, get that glimmer in play!

 

[ChaosRock]

Cool. These numbers aren't exact, but I think they're pretty close.
View attachment 114862

The only thing with that is that you gotta use the payouts after subtracting the $500... So your total must be $6,300 for the chop. You do the new payouts proportionately, or use percentages.

 

[bergs]

Fuck chopping. If you didn't play the tourney to win than just go play cash. Chopping is for pussies.

 

[upNdown]

Fuck chopping. If you didn't play the tourney to win than just go play cash. Chopping is for pussies.

Haha. Call me big pussy then.
But to address your point, I play tournaments more often than cash because I think my skill level compared to my opponents is higher in live tournaments than in cash - it's more profitable to me and I have fun. And the profit is a bit more important than the fun, so I'm good with eliminating variance where I can, and putting cash in my pocket.

 

[moose]

http://www.icmpoker.com/icmcalculator/

This or if you have an Android phone, I use the Deal Maker app.

 

[Quicksilver-75]

I'd be happy with that, absolutely! God knows how cruel the poker gods can be. As long as everybody is good with the sums it's a good thing.

 

[Jambine]

Jambine, the problem with a chop based on the percentage of chips is if it is more than 1st, it will never happen. A chop only works if those at the very bottom have something to gain by chopping. If their situation doesn't improve, they have no reason to chop and will instead fight.

Exactly. I'm not giving up any equity, so its easy to say no.