Truth in Filtering

HMK

3 of a Kind
Joined
Mar 23, 2019
Messages
676
Reaction score
1,560
Location
Sweden
Natural light... You guys should come to northern Sweden in december...

sketch-1624916294829.jpg
 

BearMetal

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
May 23, 2019
Messages
3,638
Reaction score
6,210
Location
East Windsor, NJ
Some members here post images of chips that are just downright gorgeous. The colors jump out, but are not over saturated; the background is neutral with slight bokeh, texture/crosshatch is visible. I don't know how they do it. I mean, sure I do; they have some nice cameras and great lighting. Originally, I would have called total BS on their posts, but now that I've gotten to know them, I definitely don't think there's any deliberate touchups.

Point is, sometimes the chips are just that pretty :)

Edit: sometimes, after taking a picture, I do touch it up a little so that it more accurately reflects the way it really looks. But never in an ad.
 

ReallyGoodUsername

Royal Flush
Site Vendor
Supporting Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2018
Messages
15,887
Reaction score
28,327
Location
Boston
Some members here post images of chips that are just downright gorgeous. The colors jump out, but are not over saturated; the background is neutral with slight bokeh, texture/crosshatch is visible. I don't know how they do it. I mean, sure I do; they have some nice cameras and great lighting. Originally, I would have called total BS on their posts, but now that I've gotten to know them, I definitely don't think there's any deliberate touchups.

Point is, sometimes the chips are just that pretty :)

Edit: sometimes, after taking a picture, I do touch it up a little so that it more accurately reflects the way it really looks. But never in an ad.
From what they'e said it's mostly lighting followed by linking the photo and not importing it since importing degrades the file and sucks the color out of it.
 

Eloe2000

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2019
Messages
6,479
Reaction score
15,713
Location
Casa Mango, FL
FWIW all cameras interpret and process colors differently. Even basic cell phone cameras apply a proprietary color profile that Apple or Samsung etc believe their customers prefer that are generally pretty saturated and apply a high dynamic range process.

And this website definitely does some kind of processing when uploading iPhone photos. I am not sure if it occurs when converting to JPEG from Apples new proprietary image format but it’s certainly annoying as hell. It desaturates images and I probably overcompensate for that when editing cell phones photos for this site.
 

BearMetal

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
May 23, 2019
Messages
3,638
Reaction score
6,210
Location
East Windsor, NJ
And this website definitely does some kind of processing when uploading iPhone photos.
I just did a comparison of a photo I uploaded to this site vs the original. Although it has been modified (resized at the very least), I don't see any different in the colors. A color grabber of edge spots shows the same color between original and uploaded. But this was also from an Android device, so there could be a big difference there.
 

Rieguy

Flush
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2020
Messages
1,594
Reaction score
3,836
Location
Texas
From what they'e said it's mostly lighting followed by linking the photo and not importing it since importing degrades the file and sucks the color out of it.

That's what I started doing and it works way better, especially as someone not good with pictures or any editing. I just wish I could resize the photo when linking so it doesn't come out so huge here.

I just did a comparison of a photo I uploaded to this site vs the original. Although it has been modified (resized at the very least), I don't see any different in the colors. A color grabber of edge spots shows the same color between original and uploaded. But this was also from an Android device, so there could be a big difference there.

For me it's a crap-shoot with the differences being subtle or quite noticeable. Here's an example though of imported vs. linked with one of my pics (zero editing outside of cropping):

gAJnvX6.jpg

gAJnvX6.jpg
 

Taghkanic

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
4,205
Reaction score
4,317
Location
Hudson Valley, NY
Point is, sometimes the chips are just that pretty :)

Sure. Sometimes.

But then, there are all the chips which members know are pretty drab even if you clean and oil them perfectly, and get perfect lighting... which get posted looking like they are all hotter than the hottest Paulson colors.

I might have to design a Lipstick on a Pig set for just this purpose...
 

Taghkanic

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
4,205
Reaction score
4,317
Location
Hudson Valley, NY
Here's an example though of imported vs. linked with one of my pics (zero editing outside of cropping):

Interesting. The imported pic looks significantly less sharp, and a little less intense. Presumably PCF has to downsize very large images uploaded here to avoid massive hosting costs. (The imported one is hosted locally on PCF; the linked one also has a PCF URL, but it’s a proxy link to your imgur.com file.)
 

Taghkanic

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
4,205
Reaction score
4,317
Location
Hudson Valley, NY
Here's an example though of imported vs. linked with one of my pics (zero editing outside of cropping):

I downloaded each file... The imported one is 102KB, and the linked one is 1.3MB.

So the import is less than 8% of the size. No wonder.
 

gopherblue

4 of a Kind
Joined
Aug 13, 2013
Messages
6,689
Reaction score
14,304
Location
Fuggedaboudit!
Sure. Sometimes.

But then, there are all the chips which members know are pretty drab even if you clean and oil them perfectly, and get perfect lighting... which get posted looking like they are all hotter than the hottest Paulson colors.

I might have to design a Lipstick on a Pig set for just this purpose...
Here is a pic of Kings Castles, that is pretty accurate, color-wise. You can find example(s) on PCF that are not. And certain of those examples are LOLz, and there is no way the end result was simply due to the choice of phone. Or southern California light.

67DD494C-E4CB-4DAA-B2AB-ABA0226A3CAC.jpeg
 
Last edited:

Taghkanic

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
4,205
Reaction score
4,317
Location
Hudson Valley, NY
Here is a pic of Kings Castles, that is pretty accurate, color-wise. You can find example(s) on PCF that are not. And certain of those examples are LOLz, and there is no way the end result was simply due to the choice of phone. Or southern California light.

Following the lead of @gopherblue , I did a quick spin around PCF to look at some sample pics of King’s Castles. Using an eyedropper in my image editor, I grabbed the base and edgespot colors on four different posters’ pics of KC $5s and $25s. Results below:

kc-colors.jpg


The pics by A, C and D were each different, but fall within the same realm—easily explained by somewhat varied light conditions and cameras. I’d say that A’s pics were taken in slightly in lower light; C’s came out a little more saturated; and D’s pics were noticeably washed out.

Meanwhile, the pics by poster B (from a sale thread) were far brighter and much more saturated, in a way that can’t be attributed just to lighting or other natural conditions. These appeared to have had their colors deliberately bumped up to look much hotter and juicier than reality. Admittedly, I’ve not handled this particular chip, but B appears to be a major outlier.

Their “real” (commonly perceived) appearance I would guess falls somewhere between A and C, depending on the light in a given room..
 
Last edited:

Eloe2000

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2019
Messages
6,479
Reaction score
15,713
Location
Casa Mango, FL
I just did a comparison of a photo I uploaded to this site vs the original. Although it has been modified (resized at the very least), I don't see any different in the colors. A color grabber of edge spots shows the same color between original and uploaded. But this was also from an Android device, so there could be a big difference there.

There is definitely something up with iPhone camera photos or screen captured from iPhones. iPhone natively records images in HEIC format instead of JPEG. You are supposed to be able to change that, but I still get the same results.

You can see the difference below although I swear it’s even worse when the photos are actually taken on the iPhone.

Screen capture on iphone:

F9F15BA4-109B-497D-8D14-1DA07C772138.jpeg


Vs upload of Lightroom edited photo imported through Dropbox and uploaded form phone (not taken or edited on an iPhone):

696C3287-7026-4C57-B148-CCAF7BFEA60F.jpeg



Screen capture on iPhone:

A6D2ADD6-4AE7-4AC8-A014-035512EF502D.jpeg


Vs upload from Dropbox of a photo from Tina taken on a non-iPhone (not taken or edited on an iPhone)

32B51060-F009-4F2E-AAF5-4ADB5A46429A.jpeg
 
Last edited:

BearMetal

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
May 23, 2019
Messages
3,638
Reaction score
6,210
Location
East Windsor, NJ
There is definitely something up with iPhone camera photos or screen captured from iPhones. iPhone natively records images in HEIC format instead of JPEG.
I don't know much about the HEIC format, but based on the descriptions here, Maybe something is happening to the color profile. Perhaps HEIC format when it gets scaled and converted to a JPEG for the site doesn't correctly preserve the color profile that's embedded into the original image. Similar to how using the wrong printer color profile for vector graphics can result in some different colors and or overly saturated images.
 

Taghkanic

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
4,205
Reaction score
4,317
Location
Hudson Valley, NY
I would fully expect there to be a difference between the iPhone’s native HEICs, JPEGs created from those originals, and screenshots taken on the iPhone, even before uploading to PCF (where they appear to get further downsized).

Wouldn’t the resolution of the screenshots is limited to what that type of iPhone is able to display? I’d think those would always have a lower resolution than the native files, and possibly also less than any files resaved as JPEGs prior to upload. Except possibly on the very the largest, newest iPhone.
 

Eloe2000

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2019
Messages
6,479
Reaction score
15,713
Location
Casa Mango, FL
Resolution isn’t the issue though, it’s color. And the color alteration isn’t the result of compression. There is definitely a color profile/space issue happening. I would say that iPhones use a wider color gamut and save in Adobe as opposed to sRGB, and the photos when uploaded fall victim to a poor conversion process. This is probably true. But what tells me something else is happening for example is that Tina will send me a photo which I can upload here via my iPhone and it looks great just like on my iPhone. But if all I do is “edit” the photo by rotating it and upload it then it falls victim to the desaturation thing again.
 

Eloe2000

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2019
Messages
6,479
Reaction score
15,713
Location
Casa Mango, FL
Resolution isn’t the issue though, it’s color. And the color alteration isn’t the result of compression. There is definitely a color profile/space issue happening. I would say that iPhones use a wider color gamut and save in Adobe as opposed to sRGB, and the photos when uploaded fall victim to a poor conversion process. This is probably true. But what tells me something else is happening for example is that Tina will send me a photo which I can upload here via my iPhone and it looks great just like on my iPhone. But if all I do is “edit” the photo by rotating it and upload it then it falls victim to the desaturation thing again.

Photo direct from Tina and uploaded without editing (notice vibrant colors):

46AB37D6-F21B-4E5D-BD8A-56B02C517CDC.jpeg


Photo rotated on my iPhone and uploaded (check the color difference):

BF41FC3E-569C-4528-BA13-296CD9D2BA8B.jpeg
 

BearMetal

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
May 23, 2019
Messages
3,638
Reaction score
6,210
Location
East Windsor, NJ
I just wrote a really simple conversion for HEIC to JPEG and ran an image through it and also scaled it. Visually, on my screen, I see no changes to the colors. So it's not merely an artifact of the conversion. Whatever library this site uses must be losing something in the color profile.

It seems like when the iPhone touches the image and re-saves it, it's adding some sort of metadata ( maybe a custom color profile ), that doesn't agree with the library that this site uses.
 

upNdown

Royal Flush
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
12,328
Reaction score
15,607
Location
boston
As a former professional photographer it’s very difficult to accurately capture the color of chips, particularly brighter day Glo spot colors ie blaze, hot pink, peach. Lighting, backdrop, camera/phone, white balance, everything vary greatly situationally and even from day to day. I care more about the condition of chips being accurately shown and described. At this point if somebody isn’t familiar with what colors look like in person that’s on them. Everybody should know what they’re buying or ask for Paulson color callouts if uncertain and compare the reference pics in the resource section.
This is basically my attitude at this point. I just laugh at the dinks who are using crazy lighting and photoshop to saturate the F out of their pics, because who are they fooling. (I laugh at a lot of dinks for a lot of reasons.) But we do have to remind ourselves that noobs have been increasing almost exponentially and they could be taken in by such shenanigans.
 

rjdev7

Flush
Joined
Jul 22, 2015
Messages
1,451
Reaction score
2,364
Location
New York, NY
I'd like to weigh in here, because I might be one of the "dinks" who takes photos of my babies (chippies) in crazy lighting. I bought a small "photo box" on Amazon (like this one) so that I could take barrel photos using my iPhone in good lighting. I love the results, but I also don't alter anything about the pictures (e.g. I don't change any settings on my iPhone, nor do I photoshop anything after the fact)

A few examples:
Point is, you can take pics with lots of light, but it doesn't change the color saturation of the images. That to me is the "misleading" thing that should be avoided.

Or maybe I'm just crazy, which is entirely possible.
 

Ben8257

4 of a Kind
Supporting Member
Joined
May 20, 2019
Messages
6,725
Reaction score
20,025
Location
Finksburg, maryland USA
Not sure how I have missed this thread but very interesting.

I also have never edited any colors but I feel like we all know that evening indirect sunlight is the best time to "get the shot"

Taken By @FordPickup92 but zero editing... just the right amount of natural day light makes these glow!
20210122_071557.jpg

My favorite poker chip picture ever and can confirm in fading evening light that is what they look like!

In full afternoon light
20210129_124552.jpg


What they looked liked stacked up in Florida from @k9dr phone
3B75700E-632D-4C5A-B775-F578F08F000E.jpeg.jpg


Not sure who snapped this one in VA
20210527_201544.jpg

Edit** looking at the cappers. Twas my own picture and didn't even realize it! Lmao

And in reality with a crappy table lamp late at night!
20210515_004043.jpg


Realistically will we ever be playing with them in natural light? No... but I don't see anything wrong with using the sun to help make them "pop" for pictures. The saturation thing I guess makes sense though... but really it's like a padded Bra or Makeup! The world is a deceiving place!
 
Last edited:

BGinGA

Royal Flush
Tourney Director
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2014
Messages
25,692
Reaction score
39,804
Location
Atlanta
I can't believe nobody has posted the "old man yells at clouds" meme in this thread yet. Digitally color-enhanced, of course.
 

Taghkanic

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
4,205
Reaction score
4,317
Location
Hudson Valley, NY
I also have never edited any colors but I feel like we all know that evening indirect sunlight is the best time to "get the shot"

Taken By @FordPickup92 but zero editing... just the right amount of natural day light makes these glow!

My favorite poker chip picture ever and can confirm in fading evening light that is what they look like!
[...]
Realistically will we ever be playing with them in natural light? No... but I don't see anything wrong with using the sun to help make them "pop" for pictures. The saturation thing I guess makes sense though... but really it's like a padded Bra or Makeup! The world is a deceiving place!

The difference here is pretty stark... While I believe you when you say that the lefthand image is purely natural light, I can’t say that I’ve ever taken a photo of any of the several thousand chips I’ve sold where such a gigantic difference could be explained by lighting alone. At least not with a decent camera.

And I usually take my pics in natural light, in my kitchen, on a white countertop under a 10' tall giant picture window...

Idea: A PCF mat (like the one I also have, used in your lefthand photo) with a narrow b&w/color scale built into it.

1627917549654.png
 

BearMetal

Full House
Supporting Member
Joined
May 23, 2019
Messages
3,638
Reaction score
6,210
Location
East Windsor, NJ
The difference here is pretty stark... While I believe you when you say that the lefthand image is purely natural light, I can’t say that I’ve ever taken a photo of any of the several thousand chips I’ve sold where such a gigantic difference could be explained by lighting alone. At least not with a decent camera.

It's possible that whatever phone was used is automatically applying filters in the background to adjust for dynamic enhancements and black levels and stuff. Just because Ben didn't specifically apply a filter doesn't mean his software didn't.
 
Top Bottom