Tournament bankroll management/psychology (2 Viewers)

[Tarsus4]

TL;DR: this is a "how do I decide if I'm trash or not" thread, but specifically around casino MTTs and the variance in outcomes around that.

Background: I absolutely despise 1/3 in my area casinos, I don't want to debate that here. There's a number of gameplay and non-gameplay reasons, and no judgment it's just not for me. Home games are great but scratch a different itch (hanging out).

Tournaments, on the other hand, I'm really enjoying. I'm loving developing a strategy and figuring out what I need to work on for the next session and seeing the subsequent improvements in my game (for example, I'm a lot more reliable now in the deep-stacked early levels than I was when I started). I also really enjoy seeing some of the same regulars and getting the positive comradery around good plays and good sessions that you don't get as much in casino cash.

My problem at this point is purely bankroll. I had a few cashes early on including one very significant one, and for a while that fueled my entries. But this month has been a string of deep-but-not-cashing runs that have left me feeling pretty good about my progress but not about my wallet.

How do you handle the greater variation in tournament outcomes, particularly if you haven't yet demonstrated to yourself that you're a solid player? Do you set a budget and take a (potentially long) break if your winnings deplete? I can afford what I've spent so far, but (a) I don't know if I'm on a temporary downswing or just reverting to the mean, and (b) psychologically the losses are starting to intrude on the positive things I'm taking away from (what I see as) progress and fun. When do you know you need a break (spoiler alert: I probably need a break)?

Not looking for strategy advice.

 

[Jimulacrum]

MTTs are one of the harder forms of poker to judge your results vis-à-vis your skill because they're typically longshots even for skilled players (especially true the bigger the field). The best approach is to only play MTTs for buy-in amounts that are relatively trivial to you bankroll-wise.

Also, beware that "camaraderie" among regulars in a public cardroom. Friendliness can easily bleed into softplay, chip dumping, and other forms of collusion (beyond the common silent collusion of checking it down when someone is all-in). It can really screw you out of your fair shot in tournaments if you're a relatively new guy among dozens of people who have each other's phone numbers.

 

[ChipMonster]

Poker is difficult because you can play close to optimal but still not have positive results and on the flip side, play like a donkey and win. Short-term variance is brutal in this game and can leave you questioning whether or not you’re actually improving vs getting lucky vs not.

I’ve found for myself personally that I need to build in forced breaks where I can focus on other skill based, lower variance, higher linear correlation to skill development vs being so wrapped up in poker. Tennis, golf, target shooting are just a couple examples I use to balance.

I’m almost exactly like you in that I had a string of very good results early in my poker tournament journey and have hit lulls for stretches. Tournaments in general are much more variance driven vs cash so I have learned to come to terms with that. No matter what happens, after I play I take time to reflect on my decision making process and give myself a score and identify where I made solid decisions vs not so solid decisions and then think about drivers to those decisions. Sometimes though you just don’t know and that’s the abyss of poker!!

 

[btbmason]

I have similar feelings about small stakes casino cash games vs tournaments, and tend to enjoy tournaments more.

You could look at it as entertainment. Even if you’re not cashing, deep runs still take up a decent amount of time, and if you like the camaraderie it’s worth it for the sake of enjoyment.

But yeah the tournament variance is brutal and there isn’t really a way around that. You can survive in most regular cash games as a winning player with 20 buyins, but the “old standard” rule was needing 100 buyins for tournaments. Maybe less with a weak player pool, but you still probably need a lot to sustain downswings in tournaments.

If you are emotionally/financially tied to your poker bankroll, save up until you’re comfortable with the amount you can potentially lose. If you can afford to replenish your poker bankroll with job/life earnings, then you just have to embrace the variance, knowing eventually you’ll come back out on the other side.

I’m not going to try and persuade you to play cash games since you say you don’t like it, but for a long time that’s how I funded playing tournaments. “Working” by grinding cash to build a bankroll, then using some of those profits to take shots at tournaments where I was having more fun. At some point I realized it was the same as having a second job to fund what I was enjoying about the game, so I just used money from other hobbies or odd jobs to play the occasional tournament.

 

[LotsOfChips]

if you haven't yet demonstrated to yourself that you're a solid player?

Tournaments are a hard nut to crack, for sure. Rather than focusing on results (Did I win?), IMO you need to focus on process (Did I play that hand correctly? Was my overall strategy right for the circumstances? Do I need to learn new skills, or unlearn bad ones?).

Do you set a budget and take a (potentially long) break if your winnings deplete?

You should always set a budget of what you can afford to lose, and play within that (IMO).

For professional players, poker is their primary (and often only) source of income. They need to have enough of a dedicated bankroll to allow for extended downswings while still being able to eat and pay rent. If their bankroll dries up, they often either switch to lower stakes, or give up poker and get a day job.

Non-professional players have a separate source of primary income. Bankroll management for most of them is simply not spending more than what your disposable income from your main gig will allow.

 

[Highli99]

Tournaments are stupid. But if you enjoy them, just play within your means. Keep the buyin and frequency within your what you can afford to lose. Assume you are not a winning player until results indicate otherwise. Even then, remain skeptical.

 

[eveamu1]

If you are playing recreationally, just stick to a budget. If you are more serious about earning money, you would probably know the real answer. 80-200 buy ins for tourneys is ok for sustaining variance. If you lose that you either suck or are one of the most unlucky players there is.

 

[Tarsus4]

Thanks everyone for the input.

I think my take on this is going to have to be that cashes aren't a given and I need to slow down to what is purely supported by what I want to spend. If I hit another big win then I can boost my play, but I don't think a casual player like myself can afford to think in terms of "downswings" that you just bankroll through. Honestly I'm probably not that good.

 

[Senzrock]

Very few amateurs (and even many less pros than you would think) have the right bankroll to fire MTTs. That's just the bare bones. Skilled players generally build up their bankrolls playing cash and then take shots in MTTs, knowing, even with a potential skill edge, they are not likely to cash and much less likely to make a deep enough run where it will matter.

My advice: if you can play small stakes tournaments online, do that. Build up a reasonable sample size (at least 100+ tournaments played) to give yourself a sense of where you are at. You can play 100 x $5 tournaments over a couple month period without breaking the bank. If smaller buy-in tournies are not available to you online, then I would largely avoid live MTTs given what you describe. Live MTTs should be thought of as fun and purely as a gamble. It's hard... because many people (myself included) feel like tournaments, especially large field live MTTs, are the most fun form of poker. But you have to exercise restraint and build up a sample size that is within your bankroll.