Tourney Thoughts on this T5000 25/50 structure (2 Viewers)

[Blind Joe]

I'm planning on hosting my second STT with an expected turnout of 6-9 players with a few rebuys. The first was a T1500 5/10 with a fairly aggressive blind structure that seemed to run really well, but I've read a few forum posts here and there making the case for base T25 on the grounds that it is more efficient and easier for casual players to figure multiples of 25, so I thought I'd try to figure out a structure for a T25 based tournament.

Chip Set (I'll include the T5s just so it's clear what I've got in case anyone has alternatives):

T5 x 395
T25 x 285
T100 x 250
T500 x 100

First thing you'll probably notice is the absence of T1000s or higher. I can't order any rolls atm as they are all out of stock for my set, but I've ordered a sample of non-denoms which I'm thinking of using for T1000s and above if needed.

Starting stack: 12/12/7

20 minute blinds as follows:

1. 25/50
2. 50/100
3. 75/150
4. 100/200
5. 150/300
   • Break (Colour Up T25)
6. 200/400
7. 300/600
8. 400/800
9. 500/1000
10. 600/1200
11. 800/1600
    • Break (Colour Up T100)
12. 1000/2000
13. 1500/3000

I'm guessing colouring up the T100s with my set will be pretty futile. If we get 8 players and 4 rebuys that would be 60k on the table. The T500s will cover 50k but that leaves 100 x T100s to cover the remaining 10k which is a total of 200 chips on the table during the final blinds. I'm guessing that's a bit much lol! Although if there's only a total of 10 buy-ins/re-buys the T500s would cover it, and stacks of 50 chips at heads up might be big but not ridiculous if only in one denomination.

As I say it's only my second time hosting and the home games I've been to before (not many) have had little to no structure so I've not got a lot of experience to go on. So... what do you think?

 

[Alex Lundstrum]

I suggest keeping the T5 base and going with T3000 starting stack (20/20/14/2). After 10 buy-ins/rebuys, do 2 x (0/20/15/2), then handle all rebuys with 6 x 500.

My preferred blind structure:
10/20
15/30
20/40
30/60
40/80
60/120
X T5
75/150
100/200
150/300
200/400
X 25
300/600
400/800
600/1200
800/1600
X as many 100 as possible with set
1000/2000
1500/3000 (should end here-ish)
2000/4000
3000/6000
4000/8000
6000/12,000
8000/16,000

 

[Trihonda]

What are you using for chips? Just curious... so we can figure out if it makes senses to use the T5 chip for a 1k or 2k alternative?

 

[Blind Joe]

What are you using for chips? Just curious... so we can figure out if it makes senses to use the T5 chip for a 1k or 2k alternative?

These are the chips in my set.

 

[Mr Winberg]

How long do you want the tournament to last? Your suggested structure should end around level 12 or 13 for 8 players and 4 rebuys.

 

[Blind Joe]

How long do you want the tournament to last? Your suggested structure should end around level 12 or 13 for 8 players and 4 rebuys.

Between 4—5 hours, so by my reckoning my initial structure was about right for the length.

I suggest keeping the T5 base and going with T3000 starting stack (20/20/14/2). After 10 buy-ins/rebuys, do 2 x (0/20/15/2), then handle all rebuys with 6 x 500.

My preferred blind structure:
10/20
15/30
20/40
30/60
40/80
60/120
X T5
75/150
100/200
150/300
200/400
X 25
300/600
400/800
600/1200
800/1600
X as many 100 as possible with set
1000/2000
1500/3000 (should end here-ish)
2000/4000
3000/6000
4000/8000
6000/12,000
8000/16,000

The only trouble with this is at 20 minute levels there's a chance it could be on the longer side of what I'm aiming for. I wouldn't fancy going any shorter than 20 as so far we're only used to 30 minute levels in our tourneys, but as a result they had more aggressive blind raises to compensate.

 

[fieldsy]

I suggest keeping the T5 base and going with T3000 starting stack (20/20/14/2). After 10 buy-ins/rebuys, do 2 x (0/20/15/2), then handle all rebuys with 6 x 500.

I like poker chips, but do you really play with 56 chips in a tourney starting stack? I run tourneys with 27 chips (8/8/4/7) and I still end up with some unwieldy stacks at the table. I'm all for giant stacks in a cash game where they are mostly a single denomination, but in tournaments with casual players that seems like a lot. When I first started hosting tournaments I tried bigger starting stacks (like maybe 40 chips) but after a few runs it was clear it was overkill.

I'm all for the move to a T25-based structure. It's just more aligned with standard tournament administration. T5 doesn't really seem to be a thing anymore. The WSOP doesn't even use T5's in stud tournaments these days. Even at the T1000 and T1500 single-table satellites they play with 25s. I also think the structure in the OP is a good one and workable with that set.

 

[guyfleegman]

I vote for staying with the T5 base.
For STT it is my absolute preference.
10-10-7-X
I also like to start at 10-20 blinds so you can stay in the 33-50% increase rangstsrting at 5-10 forces you to “double” at the first blind increase.
200 BB = 4K stacks 10-10-7-6
Or feel free to start at 5-10 for 400 BB or 200 BB with lots of rebuys.

 

[BGinGA]

I also like to start at 10-20 blinds so you can stay in the 33-50% increase range
starting at 5-10 forces you to “double” at the first blind increase.

Not necessarily -- adding a 5/15 level accomplishes the same 33-50% objective with 5/10 starting blinds. But if the chip set is big enough to support it, I prefer starting at 10/20.

 

[Blind Joe]

I like poker chips, but do you really play with 56 chips in a tourney starting stack? I run tourneys with 27 chips (8/8/4/7) and I still end up with some unwieldy stacks at the table. I'm all for giant stacks in a cash game where they are mostly a single denomination, but in tournaments with casual players that seems like a lot. When I first started hosting tournaments I tried bigger starting stacks (like maybe 40 chips) but after a few runs it was clear it was overkill.

I'm all for the move to a T25-based structure. It's just more aligned with standard tournament administration. T5 doesn't really seem to be a thing anymore. The WSOP doesn't even use T5's in stud tournaments these days. Even at the T1000 and T1500 single-table satellites they play with 25s. I also think the structure in the OP is a good one and workable with that set.

Last time I hosted (my first time hosting) I went with T5 and used stacks of 50 in 25/15/10 - probably for all the wrong reasons but I liked the way each stack fit perfectly into a rack in my case and I also wanted everyone to have plenty T5s for the early rounds as I play with a group who will limp everything.

It wasn't necessarily overkill as far as players needs went as they used up those T5s like they were going out of fashion but it certainly was a lot of chips in play and I want to move away from that. I don't think they're ready for T25 8/8/8 yet as they'd be constantly making change from each other, but hopefully they'll cope with T25 12/12/7 and it might nudge them to utilise their stacks more efficiently.

On the subject of T25 being more in line with the accepted standards out there that's another reason for me to want to switch (not that any of us are likely to step outside our bubble anytime soon, but you know).

I vote for staying with the T5 base.
For STT it is my absolute preference.
10-10-7-X
I also like to start at 10-20 blinds so you can stay in the 33-50% increase rangstsrting at 5-10 forces you to “double” at the first blind increase.
200 BB = 4K stacks 10-10-7-6

I may do this if we ever got a big turn out. The most we've had so far is 11 which my set wouldn't cover for T25 (at least not with any rebuys or without having hundreds of T100s in play at heads up) although I'd probably stick with 100—150BB.

 

[JustinInMN]

Without T1000 chips rebuys are going to be tough. You just don't have enough T500.

I think T5 is base. Cut from Starting stacks of 25 and go to 15.

I am thinking 15/17/5 or T2000 starting at 10-20, it's the same as T5000 starting at 25-50.

This reserves all the T500s for rebuys and color ups.

Now if you are thinking of switching to T25 when you can get the T1000 chips I would get 150.

With what you already have (more than 240 of T25 and T100) this gives you a 20 player 12/12/5/6 setup for T10K, plus 30 extra to color up the 25 and 100. And get 50 of the T5000 for rebuys and bigger color ups.

If you think you would ever want to do 30 players at 8/8/4/7, then actually consider an additional 100 T1000 chips.

Good luck.

 

[Blind Joe]

Without T1000 chips rebuys are going to be tough. You just don't have enough T500.

I think T5 is base. Cut from Starting stacks of 25 and go to 15.

I am thinking 15/17/5 or T2000 starting at 10-20, it's the same as T5000 starting at 25-50.

This reserves all the T500s for rebuys and color ups.

Now if you are thinking of switching to T25 when you can get the T1000 chips I would get 150.

With what you already have (more than 240 of T25 and T100) this gives you a 20 player 12/12/5/6 setup for T10K, plus 30 extra to color up the 25 and 100. And get 50 of the T5000 for rebuys and bigger color ups.

If you think you would ever want to do 30 players at 8/8/4/7, then actually consider an additional 100 T1000 chips.

Good luck.

I think my set would cover 14 stacks, and since I'm only expecting around 8 people I don't think rebuys are an issue... Are they? I doubt we'll get anything like 20 players any time soon, let alone 30. My biggest concern is the lack of T1000s or even extra T500s for colouring up in the later rounds as there would potentially be 200+ chips heads up.

I'll see how this sample of non-denominational chips that I've ordered ends up looking. They're really cheap but they're 12g clays and look decent so I may end up ordering enough to use as T1000s as a stop gap until my Casino Royales are back in stock.

 

[Frode789]

I like poker chips, but do you really play with 56 chips in a tourney starting stack? I run tourneys with 27 chips (8/8/4/7) and I still end up with some unwieldy stacks at the table. I'm all for giant stacks in a cash game where they are mostly a single denomination, but in tournaments with casual players that seems like a lot. When I first started hosting tournaments I tried bigger starting stacks (like maybe 40 chips) but after a few runs it was clear it was overkill.

Poker groups are different though. My regulars would have hated to have just 8/8 of the two lowest denominations. 27 chips is on the low-end of the spectrum.

 

[Mr Winberg]

If it was me, I'd stick with a T5 base until more chips can be ordered in May. It's not that long a wait. Even though I prefer a T25 base, there's nothing wrong with a good ole T5 tourney

 

[Darson]

Personally, if I had a T1500 5/10 starting blinds game that ran really well, why change when you don't have the extra chips yet? Stick to the plan that works for now until your chips are back in stock.

I also like the nice even starting stacks - it makes life a lot easier when setting out and for rebuys etc. Some suggested starting stacks:

• 10/14/16 (40 chips/2 barrels) T2k
• 20/20/9 (49 chips) T1500 (2 player's starting stacks fit in a rack with a spacer between the T100s)
• 15/21/4 (40 chips/2 barrels) T1k or add a single T500 for T1500

If possible I prefer to have more of the 25s than 5s in the starting stack - if you have a lot of 5s, half the chips on the table disappear at the first colour-up.

For rebuys, I would just hand out 10x T100 and 1x T500 - easy to grab and you're not adding chips that will be coloured up and removed. If at lower levels, players can make change for smaller denoms as there are already loads on the table.

--
Edit: For what it's worth, my first home game was a T1k with a similar setup to you - it worked well without any issues. We eventually ditched the 5s and play a T10k game now and the occasional T100k when we're in a high roller mood. The main reason to move away from T5 base is to eliminate any potential chip migration between cash and tourney - my cash sets are 5c/25c/$1/$5/$20 and tourney T25/T100/T500/etc.

 

[Blind Joe]

Personally, if I had a T1500 5/10 starting blinds game that ran really well, why change when you don't have the extra chips yet? Stick to the plan that works for now until your chips are back in stock.

I also like the nice even starting stacks - it makes life a lot easier when setting out and for rebuys etc. Some suggested starting stacks:

• 10/14/16 (40 chips/2 barrels) T2k
• 20/20/9 (49 chips) T1500 (2 player's starting stacks fit in a rack with a spacer between the T100s)
• 15/21/4 (40 chips/2 barrels) T1k or add a single T500 for T1500

If possible I prefer to have more of the 25s than 5s in the starting stack - if you have a lot of 5s, half the chips on the table disappear at the first colour-up.

For rebuys, I would just hand out 10x T100 and 1x T500 - easy to grab and you're not adding chips that will be coloured up and removed. If at lower levels, players can make change for smaller denoms as there are already loads on the table.

--
Edit: For what it's worth, my first home game was a T1k with a similar setup to you - it worked well without any issues. We eventually ditched the 5s and play a T10k game now and the occasional T100k when we're in a high roller mood. The main reason to move away from T5 base is to eliminate any potential chip migration between cash and tourney - my cash sets are 5c/25c/$1/$5/$20 and tourney T25/T100/T500/etc.

Hmm maybe you're right, I dunno. The consensus from everyone was that it ran really well, but I'm sure I didn't get everything right on my first try at hosting. Besides, all we were used to until then were poorly organised tournaments with starting stacks that had no reasoning behind them beyond splitting the set between the number of players and blind raises that were made up on the spot.

The fact that my structure and organisation made things better has, if anything, made me keen to see if I can improve things more and maybe experiment to see what works and what doesn't, so I might try the T25 and see what happens or I might tweak the T5 while I wait for T1000 chips to come back in stock.

For the record my blind schedule for the T5 based T1500 was 30 minute levels as follows:

1. 5/10
2. 10/20
3. 15/30
4. 25/50
5. 50/100
6. 100/200
7. 150/300
8. 300/600
9. 500/1000
10. 1000/2000

I think it ended at level 9. As you can see it's quite aggressive and lacks consistency. This came about because I thought 30 minute levels would suit our social, chatty ambiance, but in order to keep the overall length down we had steeper raises. That's why in my OP I suggested 20 minute levels for the same overall length and smoother raises.

 

[Mojo1312]

Having read the first few posts, including the breakdown of your chip-set, I also favor keeping the T5 as your base utilizing a structure similar to the one Alex posted with T2500 starting stacks.

My preferred blind structure:
10/20
15/30
20/40
30/60
40/80
60/120
X T5
75/150
100/200
150/300
200/400
X 25
300/600
400/800
500/1000
600/1200
800/1600
X as many 100 as possible with set
1000/2000
1500/3000 (should end here-ish)
2000/4000
3000/6000
4000/8000
6000/12,000
8000/16,000

 

[JustinInMN]

I think my set would cover 14 stacks, and since I'm only expecting around 8 people I don't think rebuys are an issue... Are they?

I would expect this would be the one time you need 15 .

But still, since you mentioned some ncv's coming your way, maybe that's enough to bridge the gap using them as T1K chips for additional rebuys.

I like that you are coming up with a means to experiment with T25. See what your group likes.

 

[Blind Joe]

Just a quick update on this. I decided to stick to my guns and try the T25 based structure. Probably the only difference I noticed was that counting the pot seemed a lot easier than with T5s. Not a major thing but for me personally it made a difference. Overall I'm still not sure whether I should spend money on T1000s and effectively make my 395 T5s redundant or to go back to T5 with awkward pots.

I only made one change to the structure, which was to introduce 25/75 at level 2 for more consistent increases. These lopsided blinds were queried by one player but unanimously accepted once I'd explained the rationale of it.

I also convinced them to use two decks (after reading about it somewhere on here) which was met with some resistance at first but we went with a dedicated shuffler and a dedicated dealer (who also took responsibility for organising the pot and the muck) and it worked wonders.

I also tried, unsuccessfully, to introduce a HHJ, which I'd have collected with but never mind, maybe next time.

The blanks I'd ordered (pictured below) as a stop gap for the out of stock T1000s were surprisingly good considering they only cost about 9p per chip. They're 12g clay composite with as good a look and feel to them as the rest of my set. If I was ever looking to build a cash set I reckon I'd add to these.

All in all a good night of poker and a feeling that my tournaments are definitely improving!

 

[Mr Winberg]

Probably the only difference I noticed was that counting the pot seemed a lot easier than with T5s. Not a major thing but for me personally it made a difference.

This in itself is a good enough reason to switch to a T25 base, IMO.

Overall I'm still not sure whether I should spend money on T1000s

If you poll the community here, I'm pretty sure most people would advice against spending any money on poker chips.

or to go back to T5 with awkward pots.

I see no reason for this. Buy MOAR chips, then sell the ones you don't need, then use that money to buy MOAR chips!

Or keep them, and every once in a wile throw in a T5 base tournament to mix it up. I rarely use the same structure twice in a row, but that's just me...

I only made one change to the structure, which was to introduce 25/75 at level 2 for more consistent increases. These lopsided blinds were queried by one player but unanimously accepted once I'd explained the rationale of it.

I personally have nothing against levels like these, but if they feel awkward the easy solution is to double the starting stacks and the blinds (and adjust where needed). Then the levels would be 50/100, 75/150, 100/200, etc...

I also convinced them to use two decks (after reading about it somewhere on here) which was met with some resistance at first

This is always the case. There are always two stages of resistance:
1) When you suggest the idea. "Whaaat, two decks??"
2) After the first hand: "OMG, this is so confusing!! I have 3 PhD:s plus I'm a rocket surgeon, but how am I supposed to keep track of two different colored decks???"

That's why when I introduce this to new groups I always make the players commit to at least one orbit of play before they may shun the idea, because after a few hands everyone is usually on board.

All in all a good night of poker and a feeling that my tournaments are definitely improving!

Excellent! Well done!

 

[JustinInMN]

I decided to stick to my guns and try the T25 based structure. Probably the only difference I noticed was that counting the pot seemed a lot easier than with T5s. Not a major thing but for me personally it made a difference.

That's a win!

I only made one change to the structure, which was to introduce 25/75 at level 2 for more consistent increases. These lopsided blinds were queried by one player but unanimously accepted once I'd explained the rationale of it.

Win!

I also convinced them to use two decks (after reading about it somewhere on here) which was met with some resistance at first but we went with a dedicated shuffler and a dedicated dealer (who also took responsibility for organising the pot and the muck) and it worked wonders.

And another huge win!

They're 12g clay composite with as good a look and feel to them as the rest of my set. If I was ever looking to build a cash set I reckon I'd add to these

I am sure someone will be along soon to remind you that "clay composite" is a bit of a deceptive marketing term. These are probably ABS plastic, same as dice chips. That said some plastics look better than others and these do look pretty cool.

<sarcasm>If you poll the community here, I'm pretty sure most people would advice against spending any money on poker chips.</sarcasm>

Fixed your post.

So heartening to hear you were able to get a few big improvements in your game. Congrats !

 

[Blind Joe]

Some thoughts and questions for next time...

Starting stack effects on rebuys? Last two times we've started with 100BB and 150BB. Both had 1 rebuy per player for the first 3 rounds and both ended two or three rounds earlier than I predicted, probably due to our style of play. Both also had rebuys from 33—50% of the field.

I was thinking of upping the starting stacks to 200BB (in this case T10K which instinctively feels nicer, though I realise this may be entirely superficial) to add a little bit of length but I don't want to discourage rebuys with these bigger stacks. What about allowing rebuys until L4 (75/150)?

Or should I stick to T7500 (150BB) which seems to get a reasonable number of rebuys and lengthen the blind levels to stretch the overall length of the tournament?

 

[Darson]

I can only tell you what works for us but we allow up to 2 rebuys and these can be whenever - we don’t put a restriction. There’s a natural point where a single rebuy stops being worth it. If someone also has both rebuy chips in the latter levels, we allow a double rebuy.

We also play T10k which works to about a 4 hour game in all.

Works great for us! The only major tweak we’ve had to do over the last year was to limit rebuys to 2 as one guy would effectively try to buy the game.

 

[BGinGA]

Deeper stacks will typically mean fewer re-buys, but I'm not sure that is a bad thing -- the average re-buy rate for most sound structures is 25%-33%, and most early re-buys in a game with good structure are a result of bad beats and cooler hands (not super-aggression and deep pockets). That's one of the reasons why I advocate using both deep stacks and limited re-buys.

I generally allow re-buys up until the time where they no longer make financial sense; receiving anything smaller than 25BB usually isn't a very good investment. I also try to tie that endpoint into a scheduled color-up break if possible.

I'd also advise against making any schedule changes based on a small sample of just two events. Last thing you want to happen is to extend the blind level times, then have the event run two levels longer than planned when several tight players or evenly-balanced stacks make it deep, and now your time window is totally blown.

 

[Blind Joe]

Deeper stacks will typically mean fewer re-buys, but I'm not sure that is a bad thing

Well, I'd rather not reduce the total prize pot, which fewer rebuys would cause, but maybe an extended rebuy period will compensate for this.

I generally allow re-buys up until the time where they no longer make financial sense; receiving anything smaller than 25BB usually isn't a very good investment. I also try to tie that endpoint into a scheduled color-up break if possible.

Below is the current structure. I've only allowed rebuys until Level 3 up to now, which is 100BB, so perhaps it would be prudent to extend this to Level 6, which is 33BB and coincides with the Colour Up break.

1. 25/50
2. 25/75
3. 50/100
4. 75/150
5. 100/200
6. 150/300 - Colour Up
7. 200/400
8. 300/600
9. 400/800
10. 600/1200
11. 800/1600 - Colour Up T100
12. 1000/2000
13. 1500/3000
14. 2000/4000

I'd also advise against making any schedule changes based on a small sample of just two events. Last thing you want to happen is to extend the blind level times, then have the event run two levels longer than planned when several tight players or evenly-balanced stacks make it deep, and now your time window is totally blown.

Duly noted. For the record, we've always played with 30 minute levels but last time we had 20 minutes after the first hour (a warm up hour, so to speak).

 

[BGinGA]

I'd rather not reduce the total prize pot, which fewer rebuys would cause, but maybe an extended rebuy period will compensate for this.

Rather than depend on the variable nature of re-buys to increase the prize pool, you are better off either increasing the entry fee by 10-20%, or offering optional add-ons at the end of the re-buy period to add additional monies to the pot.

A 25% re-buy rate will add the same amount of funds as a 50% add-on participation rate (if half-stack for half-price), and typical add-on rates are usually closer to 80% (or higher).

 

[Blind Joe]

Rather than depend on the variable nature of re-buys to increase the prize pool, you are better off either increasing the entry fee by 10-20%, or offering optional add-ons at the end of the re-buy period to add additional monies to the pot.

A 25% re-buy rate will add the same amount of funds as a 50% add-on participation rate (if half-stack for half-price), and typical add-on rates are usually closer to 80% (or higher).

Would you have rebuys and add ons or typically one or the other? If allowing add ons at 50% for half price in my structure what sort of limitations, if any, would you implement?

 

[BGinGA]

I'd probably keep the starting stack at 150BB, depending on your time restraints. I'd also consider giving the re-buy chip intrinsic value, by awarding a small free add-on (5-10BB) to those that don't use it.

 

[APatHand]

If you can get the denominations, go for a T200 or T2500 to augment your T500's.

 

[Mr Winberg]

If you can get the denominations, go for a T200 or T2500 to augment your T500's.

Please elaborate. T200?