Tourney Thoughts for small charity church tournament? (1 Viewer)

[Larold]

Hello all!

I'm interested in putting on and directing (a legal!) hold'em tourney to help my church raise funds. Assuming they are willing and interested, here are my thoughts. Please throw lots of 'Have you thought of this?' at me.

No idea how much interest it will generate but advertising within the church will be thorough. We will probably limit to members-only on first go through. General breakdown will be 30% complete noobs - 60% casual-but-done-it-before players, and 10% serious players.

I want to make it rebuy-heavy. Decent amount of older folks, so a good chunk of the crowd will likely be tired out after say 5 hours from start of event.

I was originally thinking T2000 stacks, but that would involve T5 or T10 chips, and I read a post (possibly on here?) from an experienced director who observed that casual players and multiples-of-5 get confusing, so I'm willing to do T10,000 chips. (Plus 10k sounds sexy to noobs.)

I've got lots of friends in my poker crowd who would deal for free and be competent at it. 8 players per table, dealers don't play.

Now, the meat of the matter.

I was thinking re-buys all the way up until doing one only gets you like 10 big blinds. Unlimited rebuys until end of rebuy period. Rebuy would be... another 10k in chips? Also want to do add-on; anyone can do add-on at end of rebuy period. Someone here had a grab-bag idea - pay some cash, reach in and grab one chip; assuming it's legal (need to check for my state), what chip denoms and ratios would you recommend in the bag for a starting stack of T 10k? 25 T1k for every 5 T5k for every 1 T10k ?

I'm thinking $20 buy-in, either $15 or $20 for add-on / re-buys, $5 for grab-bag. 50% goes to prize pool.

This would likely be a Sunday afternoon starting shortly after lunch.

I have read our state's legislation on charitable gaming, and will be doing so a few more times. Here's a question - what tasks will assistance be needed with that I'm forgetting?
- Legally-required signage pin-up / take down
- Set up / tear down chairs / tables
- Food / drinks if the church wants to offer
- Dealers
- Clock watcher / announcer
- Bankers to take payment and hand out chips (no chips runners allowed in my state)
- Banker dedicated to writing legally-required receipts, keeping the books, splitting prize pool, protecting cash, etc.
- Assistants to reseat players / help move their chips

In general, would love thoughts on structure, amount and timing of breaks. I'm going to make a wild guess - this would be minimum 20 people but could be crazy popular and go all the way up to 60+, especially if we open it to the public. So let's say... 30 or fewer for my first time out.

Sorry for wall of text - would just be interested

 

[Bacon Dad]

Here are some chips that would be PERFECT for your church tournament!!! And you can customize them for larger denominations for tournament play since these are from the awesome website BRPro.

Photo from BRPro website.

 

[Szczesnk]

Probably best to not use non-denominational chips or the one's posted above.

 

[Szczesnk]

I'd probably talk to your pastor before going to far with this idea of mixing gambling and church.

 

[Preditor]

Hello from a fellow church goer also hoping to do a charity event through my church this year.

Going to answer some this out of order. I can't help you with the legal stuff (talk to a lawyer). In California, state law makes special exceptions for non-profits and even mentions churches and being able to host what they want. But will try to address most everything else.

I'm going to make a wild guess - this would be minimum 20 people but could be crazy popular and go all the way up to 60+, especially if we open it to the public. So let's say... 30 or fewer for my first time out.

If this is your first time, I would cap the number of people at 2 tables. MAYBE 3 tables (so 30). I would be really intimidated to run a 60 player tournament for the first time. If you want this to be a recurring event, get one done well with a manageable number of people, and grow from there.

I want to make it rebuy-heavy. Decent amount of older folks, so a good chunk of the crowd will likely be tired out after say 5 hours from start of event.

Little confused by this. Making this a rebuy-heavy tournament will actually make this a longer event and could push it well over 5 hours easy. Are you wanting it to be capped at 5 hours? What is your target length?

I was originally thinking T2000 stacks, but that would involve T5 or T10 chips, and I read a post (possibly on here?) from an experienced director who observed that casual players and multiples-of-5 get confusing, so I'm willing to do T10,000 chips. (Plus 10k sounds sexy to noobs.)

If you want to make this a recurring event, I would start with the format that has the most longevity.

And IMO, that is a T25 or T100 based tournament.

I like T25 for my home game. But for a sizable number of people, I would probably go with a T100 actually.

I was thinking re-buys all the way up until doing one only gets you like 10 big blinds. Unlimited rebuys until end of rebuy period

I would say that's a little bit too long for a rebuy period. Even 20BB is a bit too small.

Plus, with new players, you need to explain to them what a "BB" stack is.

I would make it simple. "Unlimited rebuys until the first break". With a standard Big Blind progression, that will put that last rebuy somewhere around 25BB. People who have played before will know how to calculate how many BB that is, and newbs don't need to worry about it. They just know, "Until the end of the first break." Simple.

Also want to do add-on; anyone can do add-on at end of rebuy period. Someone here had a grab-bag idea - pay some cash, reach in and grab one chip; assuming it's legal (need to check for my state), what chip denoms and ratios would you recommend in the bag for a starting stack of T 10k? 25 T1k for every 5 T5k for every 1 T10k ?

Depending on your state's laws, I can't imagine why that wouldn't be legal. If gambling is legal for non-profits, this shouldn't be an issue.

There are two way to do this. The "standard" way is just to make the add-on half of the starting stack at half the price. So an additional T5K chip.

But I do know based on this thread that someone does something similar to a lottery rebuy, but he spins a digital wheel.

I've got lots of friends in my poker crowd who would deal for free and be competent at it. 8 players per table, dealers don't play.

If I could reccomend? I would try to begin training players - especially if you have a smaller number - to deal themselves. Strategically seat some key players at each table and instruct them how to deal, and then they can gently help the others do it.

Then if you get dealers at a later date? Wonderful! But you won't be absolutely reliant on them.

I'm thinking $20 buy-in, either $15 or $20 for add-on / re-buys, $5 for grab-bag. 50% goes to prize pool.

IMO, the add-on should be proportional to the amount of the rebuy. Grab bag should be proportional to the median size of the available chips.

I would consider doubling the buy-in, personally. $40 with a free meal and a few hours of entertainment is still a steal. But $20 with just $10 going to the prize pool is a little lite, IMO.

- Clock watcher / announcer
- Assistants to reseat players / help move their chips

For all of this, I personally like Blind Valet. I hype it up a lot here (not being paid I swear!!!), but I think it takes over a lot of the management duties into a single app that you can control from your phone, including seating, prize pool adjustments as people rebuy/add-on, etc. For this many people, you'll likely need the paid version; but you can play around with the free one.

In general, would love thoughts on structure, amount and timing of breaks.

Structure is going to entirely depend on what chips you have, the desired length, etc. I think you should ask these questions, do some more reading on here, and repost again with some specifics.

1. How long do I want the tournament to last?
2. How many people can I feasibly sit?
3. How many chips do I have / can I afford to buy?

 

[Preditor]

I'd probably talk to your pastor before going to far with this idea of mixing gambling and church.

I'd probably give the benefit of the doubt before going too far with the idea this person is an outright idiot...

As a Christian myself, charity gambling events at church's are quite common. And most Christians I know have no problem with gambling, despite stereotypes.

 

[Szczesnk]

I'd probably give the benefit of the doubt before going too far with the idea this person is an outright idiot...

As a Christian myself, charity gambling events at church's are quite common. And most Christians I know have no problem with gambling, despite stereotypes.

I mentioned nothing of anyone being an idiot so I apologize if that is how it was taken.

 

[Preditor]

I mentioned nothing of anyone being an idiot so I apologize if that is how it was taken.

Apologies if I came across strong as well.

You didn't outright call them an idiot. But this person is asking structural questions about a tournament. In no other context on this forum (that I am aware of) would anyone say, "Are you sure you're allowed to run poker by your parents / company / college / frat house / sorority / etc.?"

I just believe it's condescending to assume otherwise here.

 

[Szczesnk]

The main question in the OP was to throw lots of "have you thought of this" to the person. I would think a basic start would be to get the pastors blessing before spending countless hours planning an event if it wouldn't be OK'd by the pastor.

I'm not arguing it is against any religious teachings to gamble but there are different degrees of what is accepted. If I were going to plan an event at work for example I would make sure my boss was OK with it before anything else. That is all I was trying to say.

 

[Colquhoun]

I would confirm with your local jurisdiction if this is ok. Any money from the entry being awarded as a prize may be considered gambling.
It may be that in order to be considered a charity tournament, all of the monies go to charity, and prizes are in the form of donated good/services from the community.
Even then, some form of permit may be required.

 

[Szczesnk]

Assuming this goes forward a good idea for an add on could be for example, bring in non- perishable food items, clothing, jacket, toiletries, etc. for a local shelter/rescue mission and get 2K in extra starting chips.

 

[Larold]

If this is your first time, I would cap the number of people at 2 tables. MAYBE 3 tables (so 30). I would be really intimidated to run a 60 player tournament for the first time. If you want this to be a recurring event, get one done well with a manageable number of people, and grow from there.

Apologies if what I wrote was a bit confusing. I've hosted and managed > 80-person tournaments before over the past three decades; this is not my first rodeo. This would be the first tourney for the -church-.

Little confused by this. Making this a rebuy-heavy tournament will actually make this a longer event and could push it well over 5 hours easy. Are you wanting it to be capped at 5 hours? What is your target length?

I'd need 2/3rds of the field likely to be eliminated approaching the 5-hour mark. Say hard cap at 6 hours.

If you want to make this a recurring event, I would start with the format that has the most longevity.

And IMO, that is a T25 or T100 based tournament.

I like T25 for my home game. But for a sizable number of people, I would probably go with a T100 actually.


I would say that's a little bit too long for a rebuy period. Even 20BB is a bit too small.

Plus, with new players, you need to explain to them what a "BB" stack is.

I would make it simple. "Unlimited rebuys until the first break". With a standard Big Blind progression, that will put that last rebuy somewhere around 25BB. People who have played before will know how to calculate how many BB that is, and newbs don't need to worry about it. They just know, "Until the end of the first break." Simple.


Depending on your state's laws, I can't imagine why that wouldn't be legal. If gambling is legal for non-profits, this shouldn't be an issue.

There are two way to do this. The "standard" way is just to make the add-on half of the starting stack at half the price. So an additional T5K chip.

But I do know based on this thread that someone does something similar to a lottery rebuy, but he spins a digital wheel.


If I could reccomend? I would try to begin training players - especially if you have a smaller number - to deal themselves. Strategically seat some key players at each table and instruct them how to deal, and then they can gently help the others do it.

I would posit that the types of folks that need training to deal are also the types of folks that would have a very hard time both dealing proficiently (tracking side-pots, all-ins, where the action is, collecting chips, etc) and playing at the same time.

Then if you get dealers at a later date? Wonderful! But you won't be absolutely reliant on them.

Good point. Odds are I can find a few folks in the group that have at least dealt casual games before.

IMO, the add-on should be proportional to the amount of the rebuy. Grab bag should be proportional to the median size of the available chips.

I would consider doubling the buy-in, personally. $40 with a free meal and a few hours of entertainment is still a steal. But $20 with just $10 going to the prize pool is a little lite, IMO.

Indeed. I have no idea what the $ risk appetite is for folks. This is indeed for a charitable cause, but it's new. I sense $40 might be a little high, especially if there's re-buys and possibly add-ons involved for another $40-$60+, so maybe $30 will be a happy medium. If there's appetite for $40, I'll do it.

For all of this, I personally like Blind Valet. I hype it up a lot here (not being paid I swear!!!), but I think it takes over a lot of the management duties into a single app that you can control from your phone, including seating, prize pool adjustments as people rebuy/add-on, etc. For this many people, you'll likely need the paid version; but you can play around with the free one.

Appreciate the recommendation. I am unfortunately legally blind - it is not possible for me to do anything from a small mobile device. I'll be running something from a PC and a large monitor. I'll figure it out - in the past I've used simple web-based tools, but I might go the TournamentDirector route.

Structure is going to entirely depend on what chips you have, the desired length, etc. I think you should ask these questions, do some more reading on here, and repost again with some specifics.

1. How long do I want the tournament to last?

75% or so of the field eliminated by 5 hours after start of tournament, hard cap at 6.

1. How many people can I feasibly sit?

Way more than would ever sign up - huge space. Plenty of tables and chairs.

1. How many chips do I have / can I afford to buy?

Won't be an issue. Will be looking at inexpensive monogramming for something like super-diamonds.

Thanks for the input! Keep it coming.

 

[Larold]

I'd probably talk to your pastor before going to far with this idea of mixing gambling and church.

Probably best to not use non-denominational chips or the one's posted above.

Didn't intend to. Chips will be (as required by law) monogrammed with logo and license number, also including the denomination.

 

[Larold]

I mentioned nothing of anyone being an idiot so I apologize if that is how it was taken.

No offense was taken.

 

[Larold]

I'd probably talk to your pastor before going to far with this idea of mixing gambling and church.

I would confirm with your local jurisdiction if this is ok. Any money from the entry being awarded as a prize may be considered gambling.
It may be that in order to be considered a charity tournament, all of the monies go to charity, and prizes are in the form of donated good/services from the community.
Even then, some form of permit may be required.

I am thoroughly investigating all of this. Reading state and local laws word for word, multiple times. So far I'm good provided I take certain actions / meet certain requirements.

 

[Szczesnk]

I am thoroughly investigating all of this. Reading state and local laws word for word, multiple times. So far I'm good provided I take certain actions / meet certain requirements.

If I were playing in this I would 100% be OK with all monies going to the charity. Maybe the winner gets to be the one to present the donations to said charity in his/her name?

 

[Preditor]

Apologies if what I wrote was a bit confusing. I've hosted and managed > 80-person tournaments before over the past three decades; this is not my first rodeo. This would be the first tourney for the -church-.

Holy cow that's awesome .

Appreciate the recommendation. I am unfortunately legally blind - it is not possible for me to do anything from a small mobile device. I'll be running something from a PC and a large monitor. I'll figure it out - in the past I've used simple web-based tools, but I might go the TournamentDirector route.

Blind Valet can also be mangled from a PC or laptop as well. I just use it on my mobile device since I am playing in my home tourney, and I can update it from my seat and push tournament updates to my screens.

But you can use it from a laptop as well. What I love is the device you're managing the tournament from (laptop, mobile, etc.) doesn't need to be the laptop hooked up to the TV that is displaying the info to the players.

I would try out the free version of Blind Valet along with Tournament Director. Both are great and have their advantages and disadvantages. TD is the gold standard and high customizable, but difficult to setup and only works on PC. Blind Valet is browser based with technically an unlimited number of screens to display, but not as customizable.

I would posit that the types of folks that need training to deal are also the types of folks that would have a very hard time both dealing proficiently (tracking side-pots, all-ins, where the action is, collecting chips, etc) and playing at the same time.

This also could be alleviated if you strategically seat people at the table. Then you can train up the greener players. Even if a greener player is dealing, as long as there are a few proficient players at each table, they can help with side pots, etc.

The tourney may run slower initially. But again, for me this is a question of if you want to do this semi-regularly or one time. One time? Get some dealers for sure! A game you do maybe quarterly at your church? I would try the first one without dealers. Ask the people who would have dealt to play instead, and kind of be unofficial referees at the table.

 

[buzzmonkey]

As a Christian myself, charity gambling events at church's are quite common. And most Christians I know have no problem with gambling, despite stereotypes.

Depends on the type of Christian/Denomination.

 

[allforcharity]

Casual/inexperienced gamblers gravitate more toward blackjack, roulette, craps, if you're able to offer an alternative to poker.

 

[BGinGA]

A few poker suggestions for ANY charity tournament:

Inexpensive short-stack buy-ins, optional inexpensive add-ons for starting stacks, unlimited re-buys during re-buy period, optional add-on after re-buys end, aggressive blind structure, and relatively-slow blind level times.

You want to encourage people to play, but also encourage people to spend. Lots of action, lots of chips, lots of donations, lots of luck.

Lots of ways to do it, but here's one example:
-- $30 buy-in for T5000 starting chips
-- $10 add-on for another T5000 starting chips
-- $20 re-buys for T5000 chips (if < T5000 stack)
-- $20 add-on (after re-buys end) for T5000 chips

You can have half of the buy-in $$ go towards the prize pool, with all add-on purchases going to charity. Re-buys can be 50% to each. Your local legal requirements may affect this.

People can play for as little as $30, but there will be plenty of folks dumping in $100+.

Set the blind structure where a typical $40/10k stack is 100bb to start (T100-base, 100/100 blinds).

Start out with 30-minute levels, with blinds doubling at the first two increases (to 100/200, 200/400), giving people plenty of time to bust out and re-buy/re-load. After completing the re-buys and add-on purchases, shift to a still-aggressive 59% avg. increase (50%-67%) structure with 25-mintute levels until play concludes. With 20-30 players, the event should end in 6 hours or less, including two breaks.

30-minute blind levels:
L1 100/100
L2 100/200
(optional break)
L3 200/400
L4 300/600
break -- end Re-buys, final Add-on
25-minute blind levels:
L5 500/1000
L6 800/1600
L7 1300/2600
break -- remove T100/T500 chips
L8 2000/4000
L9 3000/6000
L10 5000/10000
(optional break)
L11 8000/16000
L12 13000/26000
L13 20000/40000