Tourney T400k tourney starting with T1k through T100k denoms? (1 Viewer)

[jbutler]

The awkward T500 to T1000 jump has prompted many discussions. Anyone tried to eliminate the jump altogether and just start stacks with T1k through T100k chips and 1k/2k blinds?

Was thinking of the following breakdown:

10 (1k)
8 (5k)
6 (25k)
2 (100k)

I would imagine someone here has some experience with why this might be a good or a bad idea. Any thoughts?

Naturally this is off the table if using casino Paulsons due to the high denoms, but I'd be using customs anyway.

 

[ChipTalker]

I don't have an answer but thought of the same idea recently because I swapped my CPS Lavender to become T500 and Blue to become T100K. While it is the right decision for play-ability I do love the blue chip and would like to get it in play sometimes which would probably mean something like you are proposing. Watching with interest.

 

[AWenger]

Good idea to eliminate the awkward jump. Aren't there some "no cash value" or "tournament" chips from casinos with denoms of 1 and 5. Seems they would use them for tournament chips of 1, 5, 25, and 100. Same, just without the "k".

Speaking of eliminating awkward chip jumps, did you happen to catch the live stream of the WSOP High Roller for One Drop, or whatever the $111,111 buy-in was called. The live stream commentators mentioned that when they colored up chips (I think it was when they removed the 5000 chip) the WSOP and/or the table decided to just not use (or remove) the 250,000 denom chips, and go straight to the 500,000 denom. So I think they only had 3 denoms in play after that: 25,000; 100,000; and 500,000.

 

[BGinGA]

I think they only had 3 denoms in play after that: 25,000; 100,000; and 500,000.

Smart move. The 250K chips really aren't needed.

 

[BGinGA]

The awkward T500 to T1000 jump has prompted many discussions. Anyone tried to eliminate the jump altogether and just start stacks with T1k through T100k chips and 1k/2k blinds?

Was thinking of the following breakdown:

10 (1k)
8 (5k)
6 (25k)
2 (100k)

I would imagine someone here has some experience with why this might be a good or a bad idea. Any thoughts?

Naturally this is off the table if using casino Paulsons due to the high denoms, but I'd be using customs anyway.

I've done this by scaling up a 1-5-25-100 blind progression to use 1000-5000-25k-100k chips (starting with 1000/2000 blinds), and it works very well.

I set up 500K starting stacks, so everybody started with a cool half-mil:

10 x T1000
8 x T5000
10 x T25K
2 x T100K
---------------
30 chips = 500K

That's 250BB with 1000/2000 starting blind levels. Takes about 350 chips per 10-player table, including color-ups (20x T5000 to color-up the T1000s, and 30x T100K to color-up everything else). You can add extra T100K and T500K chips for absolutely huge stacks, and slice off the first few levels if desired.

I run these events using GCOP chips, although the CPS set has the denominations to support it as well. Want me to post the blind structure?

 

[Adam Crowley]

I would appreciate it when you have time. Thanks in advance

 

[slisk250]

I think @Lars does a big chip tournament with his CPS.

 

[jbutler]

I run these events using GCOP chips, although the CPS set has the denominations to support it as well. Want me to post the blind structure?

Definitely - thanks, Dave!

 

[BGinGA]

10 x T1000
8 x T5000
10 x T25K
2 x T100K
---------------
30 chips = 500K

You can go bigger by adding either T250K or T500K chips.

lvl sb bb
L1 1000 2000
L2 1000 3000
L3 2000 4000
L4 3000 6000
L5 4000 8000
L6 5000 10000
L7 6000 12000
L8 8000 16000
remove T1000 chips
L9 10000 20000
L10 15000 30000
L11 20000 40000
L12 30000 60000
L13 40000 80000
remove T5000 chips
L14 50000 100000
L15 75000 150000
L16 100000 200000
L17 125000 250000
L18 150000 300000
remove T25K chips (if using T250K chips)
L19 200000 400000
L20 250000 500000
remove T25K chips (if NOT using T250K chips)
L21 300000 600000
L22 400000 800000
remove T100K chips
L23 500000 1000000
L24 750000 1500000
L25 1000000 2000000
L26 1250000 2500000
L27 1500000 3000000
L28 2000000 4000000
L29 2500000 5000000
L30 3000000 6000000

 

[BGinGA]

Also found a 3M structure for T5000-T25K-T100K-T500K chips:

20 x T5000
16 x T25000
15 x T100000
2 x T500000
----------------
53 chips = T3M

A 10-player table requires 600 chips.

You can run this blind structure for 1.5M stacks (150BB) or 3M stacks (300BB):

lvl sb bb
L1 5,000 10,000
L2 10,000 20,000
L3 15,000 30,000
L4 20,000 40,000
L5 30,000 60,000
L6 40,000 80,000
remove T5000 chips
L7 50,000 100,000
L8 75,000 150,000
L9 100,000 200,000
L10 150,000 300,000
remove T25K chips
L11 200,000 400,000
L12 300,000 600,000
L13 400,000 800,000
L14 500,000 1,000,000
L15 700,000 1,400,000
remove T100K chips
L16 1,000,000 2,000,000
L17 1,500,000 3,000,000
L18 2,000,000 4,000,000
L19 3,000,000 6,000,000
L20 4,000,000 8,000,000

You can also use T250K chips if so inclined (20/16/10/2/2 stacks) and replace L15 with 750K/1.5M, coloring-up the T100K chips after L13. This is more WSOP-like, although somewhat inefficient.

 

[Lars]

I do this two ways with my CPS set. I do a T200K with 40 chips and a T1 million with 100 chips. It works great. BG wrote up some blind schedules for me. My players love both sets. I really like the 1k-5k-25k spread.

 

[jbutler]

Has anyone received negative feedback on this structure from players more accustomed to starting with a 25/50 or 50/100 level?

Would love to hear what @BGinGA's and @Lars's players - or anyone else's who has run this - have had to say about the structure.

 

[Lars]

My players love the extended initial 1/2 level and then it is smooth increases after that. I have not had any complaints.

 

[BGinGA]

Yep, no complaints re starting with T1000 vs T25. My players are used to being blind structure guinea pigs.

 

[Adam Crowley]

With 30 min blinds and adding antes how long do you predict this structure to last (t500k) with say 32 players

 

[BGinGA]

With 30 min blinds and adding antes how long do you predict this structure to last (t500k) with say 32 players

11 hours plus breaks for 32 players using 30-minute levels. Adding antes might slice off a half-hour, tops. The tournament will typically run no longer than L22 (400K/800K).

Here are the antes for the thirty levels:
0 (L1)
0
0
0
0
1000 (L6)
1000
2000
2000
3000
4000
6000
8000
10,000 (L14)
15,000
20,000
25,000
30,000
40,000
50,000
60,000
80,000
100,000 (L23)
150,000
200,000
250,000
300,000
400,000
500,000
600,000 (L30)

Note that adding antes will slow down the game -- it takes extra time to collect them, calculate and bet with them, award pots containing them, and to re-stack them. It also keeps the lower denomination chips in play longer -- the T1000 chips cannot be removed until L14 (vs L8 for no antes), and the T5000 chips cannot be removed until for the entire duration of the tournament (vs L13 normally). Even the T25K chips must stay on the table well past their normally scheduled removal (L27 vs L18). Personally, I would not recommend adding antes to the structure.

 

[Adam Crowley]

Do you not reccomend adding antes to any home game structure for the above mentioned reasons, or is it more this structure.

I find ante tournaments more enjoyable as I don't like folding as much as I have to in no ante tournaments.

Is there a way to tell, or do you know through your experience, what the avg stack size would be on the final table in such a tournament?

 

[Split]

Assuming a 10 person final table, the average stack size is simply the total chips bought in for divided by 10. I'm not sure if that's the answer you're looking for. If you want to know at what blind level the final table would typically occur, I'll defer to BGinGA. The physical number of chips could be roughly calculated, but it somewhat depends on how you handle coloring up.

 

[Adam Crowley]

Assuming a 10 person final table, the average stack size is simply the total chips bought in for divided by 10. I'm not sure if that's the answer you're looking for. If you want to know at what blind level the final table would typically occur, I'll defer to BGinGA. The physical number of chips could be roughly calculated, but it somewhat depends on how you handle coloring up.

Sorry I phrased my question incorrectly. At what blind level would the final table start on avg. I meant the avg stack size in bb

 

[BGinGA]

Do you not reccomend adding antes to any home game structure for the above mentioned reasons, or is it more this structure.

I find ante tournaments more enjoyable as I don't like folding as much as I have to in no ante tournaments.

Antes are designed to promote action, lest one's stack be decimated by not playing enough hands. An aggressive blind structure can accomplish the same thing without the need for antes.

Not quite sure why you think you need to fold more hands in no-ante events. Granted, one should generally fold less often in an ante structure, but that doesn't necessarily mean one should fold ~more~ in a non-ante tournament.

I have several blind structures with antes that get used regularly, including an antes-only (no blinds) structure. Our premier league blind structure includes antes. However, those blind structures are designed to include antes, and typically have a more gradual progression of blind increases to accommodate their use. The structures above are a bit more aggressive than a typical structure with antes, making their use unnecessary. In addition, starting stacks for ante structures are usually modified to provide ample chip counts to accommodate antes across the duration of the event.

Is there a way to tell, or do you know through your experience, what the avg stack size would be on the final table in such a tournament?

At what blind level would the final table start on avg. I meant the avg stack size in bb

There is just no way to accurately determine that, as there are way too many variables -- including chance/variance, things that would be specific to the group of players (style, aggression, skill, experience), and the particular distribution of chips among players that occurred that day (# of big stacks vs # of short stacks, and how big/small those stacks might be).

An aggressive group will typically reach the final table sooner in the blind structure progression than will a somewhat passive group. One or more massively large stacks in the hands of aggressive players can significantly speed up a tournament, in terms of when players bust out (resulting in an earlier final table). Those same stacks in the hands of passive players can slow it down.

 

[Phantom]

I've done this by scaling up a 1-5-25-100 blind progression to use 1000-5000-25k-100k chips (starting with 1000/2000 blinds), and it works very well.

I set up 500K starting stacks, so everybody started with a cool half-mil:

10 x T1000
8 x T5000
10 x T25K
2 x T100K
---------------
30 chips = 500K

That's 250BB with 1000/2000 starting blind levels. Takes about 350 chips per 10-player table, including color-ups (20x T5000 to color-up the T1000s, and 30x T100K to color-up everything else). You can add extra T100K and T500K chips for absolutely huge stacks, and slice off the first few levels if desired.

I run these events using GCOP chips, although the CPS set has the denominations to support it as well. Want me to post the blind structure?

Hi BG, if one was to slice off the first levels (eliminating the 1K), what would the starting stacks look like (with extra 100K)?

 

[BGinGA]

Hi BG, if one was to slice off the first levels (eliminating the 1K), what would the starting stacks look like (with extra 100K)?

If you plan on totally eliminating the T1000 chip, I'd just go with the stacks/structure shown in post #10 (dropping the T500K chips if necessary):
http://www.pokerchipforum.com/threa...h-t1k-through-t100k-denoms.13532/#post-224825

To use the stacks/structure in post #9 (without any T1000 chips) requires dropping the first 8 levels, and starting with 10k/20k blinds. To avoid starting with only 25BB, the starting stacks would need to be modified, and I don't think you can adequately do it without adding both T100K and T500K (or T250K) chips:

10 x T5000
10 x T25K
7 x T100K
3 x T500K
---------------
30 chips = 2.5M, which works out to 125BB -- still a bit short on my personal preference scale.

I'd want at least this:

10 x T5000
14 x T25K
11 x T100K
5 x T500K
---------------
40 chips = 4M, which works out to 200BB.

 

[jbutler]

Bumping this thread to see if anyone has any other thoughts on the subject or if @BGinGA or @Lars have any updated player feedback to report.

Planning to use the structure Dave posted above for T500k starting stacks for a new tourney set and wanted to see if I anyone had any reason I should reconsider.