Tourney T100 base set for 1 table T80K deep-stack

Frode789

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Hi guys. I don't have any experience with T100 base sets, so feedback on this would be very welcome!

I have been offered a nice price per chip on a custom set with base of T100 (300-500 chips). Denoms T100-T500-T1K-T5K-T25K was the plan. I was thinking of running a T80K deep-stack at 266 BB. (equals my old T20K at 75 BB start level, also 266 BB). Run-time of about 6,5 hours (breaks included). 1 table of 9 players max.
My old T25 based tournament usually saw 1-2 re-buy (3 was pretty much never happening), and 2-4 addons.

Buy-in: 200 NOK.
5K on-time bonus (So 85K start stack for those who are on time).
Re-buy/re-fill (up to start stack for full buy-in price, to reduce silly all-ins right before the break) and 1 addon, allowed before start of L7.

1 re-buy/re-fill for 80K. (gives you 36.4 BB). Costs 200 NOK.
1 Addon for 25K. (gives you 11.4 BB). Costs 65 NOK.

Start stacks:
15-7-15-7(8)-1
  • Schedule? Without the T1K the chips in play is on the lower side with around 90-100 chips. Would have preferred a bit more.
  • Re-buy and addon before start of L6, or keep it at L7?
  • Start stacks? Our group prefer to have plenty of chips and doing less changing. So in my T20K with T25 base set I have 12-17-6-10-1 start stacks and it works very well. Though I understand it the more traditional stack would be using 10 of the T100s and 10 of the T1000s. Also I think using one T25K in the start stack is ok, as it is close to 1/3 of the value in the start stack.
  • Chip set breakdown? I could have gotten away with 400 chips no problem, but the price diff is minimal for going to 500, as it is discounted price per chip at 500. (no more than 9 players will ever be at my tournaments). Thoughts?
TimeLevelSBBB
23 min1100300
23 min2200400
23 min3300600
3 min (1,12 t)BREAK----
23 min4400800
23 min56001200
23 min68001600
4 min (2,25 t)BREAK – R-buy/add----
23 min711002200
23 min815003K
10 min (3,21 t)BREAK - T100/500----
23 min92K4K
23 min103K6K
23 min114K8K
23 min126K12K
23 min138K16K
5 min (5,21 t)BREAK - T1000----
23 min1410K20K
23 min (6,07 t)15*15K30K
23 min (6,30 t)16*20K40K
Until winner or chop.1730K60K

T100 – 135 chips.
T500 – 65 chips.
During T100 and T500 removal there is 45K at 9p, down to 30K at 6p. Chip captain buys out players from both denoms. T5K x6-9.
T1000 – 135 chips.
T5000 – 135 chips. (includes plenty of chips for chip-up, addons and re-buys)
During T1K removal, there is 135K at 9p, down to 90K at 6p. T25K x3-5 + T5K x1-4.
T25000 – 30 chips. (includes plenty for chip-up T1K and rebuys).
= 500 chips.
 
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Mr Winberg

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I don't have any experience with T100 base
Me neither, but I'll give it a go.

I think using one T25K in the start stack is ok, as it is close to 1/3 of the value in the start stack.
Yeah, no problem.

[TR]
[TD]23 min[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]100[/TD]
[TD]300[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]23 min[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[TD]200[/TD]
[TD]400[/TD]
[/TR]
I know there's a fear of ever doubling the blinds here at PCF, but I would probably do 100/200 as the first level. The differences will probably be negligible, but you'll avoid the lop-sided level and the warm-up level will be a bit deeper.

[TR]
[TD]23 min[/TD]
[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]800[/TD]
[TD]1600[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4 min (2,25 t)[/TD]
[TD]BREAK – R-buy/add[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[TD]--[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]23 min[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]1100[/TD]
[TD]2200[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]23 min[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]1500[/TD]
[TD]3K[/TD]
[/TR]
I'd probably do 1000/2000 instead of 1100/2200. Have a ten minute break after 800/1600 to remove the T100 and handle add-ons, and a short break after 1500/3000 to remove the few T500.

T500 – 65 chips
63, but you're probably rounding up.

T5000 – 135 chips.
T25000 – 30 chips.

That's 1425000 for the endgame when the T1000 are gone. That's just under 18 buy-ins (not counting on-time bonus). I don't know about your crowd, but back when I allowed rebuys/addons pretty much everyone added on. If you're 9 players you won't have enough for 9 addons, even if nobody rebuys! That's easily solvable with lower starting stacks, though.

Disclaimer: I'm a bit drunk, so the maff may be a bit off...
 

Frode789

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Thank you for your input!

I know there's a fear of ever doubling the blinds here at PCF, but I would probably do 100/200 as the first level. The differences will probably be negligible, but you'll avoid the lop-sided level and the warm-up level will be a bit deeper.

True. But outside of blinds doubling, starting at 100/200 is 400 BB deep, which may be a bit of an overkill? So in that regard 100/300 seemed like a OK middle ground to get down to 266 BB.
Even though I'm sure the differences aren't earth shattering either way.

I'd probably do 1000/2000 instead of 1100/2200. Have a ten minute break after 800/1600 to remove the T100 and handle add-ons, and a short break after 1500/3000 to remove the few T500.

This was my old way, so it certainly works. =)

But I was thinking.. The reason I suggested 100/500 at the same time now, is that it allows for easier removal, just by using the T5K chips. (45K at 9p, 40K at 8p, 35K at 7p and 30K at 6p). If I split them up I'll have to use T1K chips, which will be raced off anyway later on.

63, but you're probably rounding up.

Indeed =)

That's 1425000 for the endgame when the T1000 are gone. That's just under 18 buy-ins (not counting on-time bonus). I don't know about your crowd, but back when I allowed rebuys/addons pretty much everyone added on. If you're 9 players you won't have enough for 9 addons, even if nobody rebuys! That's easily solvable with lower starting stacks, though.

Yeah my group is a bit different haha :p I have some people here that will never re-buy or addon no matter what..
We never see 3 re-buy (rarely even 2, it's mostly a cooler protection). As for addons, that's in the range of 2-4 per game.

With 9 T25K in start stack, and up to 5 used during chip-race of T1K, that's 14 in use. That means I have 16 to spare for addons and re-buys. (400K)
With 72 T5K in start stack, and up to 13 used during chip-race of T100/T500/T1K, that's 85 in use. That means I have 50 to spare for addons and re-buys. (250K)
50 T5K covers 9 addons. (45 in use)
16 T25K covers 5 re-buys (15 in use). Then we use the last 5 T5K to make T80K stack.
 

Mr Winberg

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But outside of blinds doubling, starting at 100/200 is 400 BB deep, which may be a bit of an overkill? So in that regard 100/300 seemed like a OK middle ground to get down to 266 BB.
Even though I'm sure the differences aren't earth shattering either way.
I think my point is that the deepness of the first level has very little significance. There are lots of tournaments that boast of deep structures, only to have the structure turn into a turbo, or vice versa: excellent structures that start at 100BB deep.

So you can have the first level at 100/300 as you suggest (267 BB), or 100/100 (800 BB followed by a quadrupling!!), or even the first two levels at 200/400 (200 BB), it will not make a big difference. There will probably be zero eliminations either way. It's the rest of the structure that defines your tournament, not the first level.

That's why I have nothing against doubling blinds on the first increase, as long as the rest of the structure is good. And that's why my OCD would have me set the first level to 100/200. :)

I have nothing against your 100/300, I'm just explaining my reasoning. :)

If I split them up I'll have to use T1K chips, which will be raced off anyway later on.
No, you can still use T5000. Heck, you can even use T25K if you want! Just take whichever chip(s) you want to introduce, make change with one of the players for some T1000, and voila! :)

When I run T10k tournaments I introduce T5000 chips (usually just two) when the T25 are raced off.
 
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Mr Winberg

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50 T5K covers 9 addons.
1 Addon for 25K

Aha, I missed this. I thought addon was for the full 80k. Yes, if everyone is on time and also adds on, that's 9×(80000×5000+25000) = 990000. That leaves 435000 for rebuys (only counting the 5k and 25k since all others will not survive the tournament), which covers 5 rebuys and should also give enough room to round up during color-ups.
 

Frode789

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I think my point is that the deepness of the first level has very little significance. There are lots of tournaments that boast of deep structures, only to have the structure turn into a turbo, or vice versa: excellent structures that start at 100BB deep.

So you can have the first level at 100/300 as you suggest (267 BB), or 100/100 (800 BB followed by a quadrupling!!), or even the first two levels at 200/400 (200 BB), it will not make a big difference. There will probably be zero eliminations either way. It's the rest of the structure that defines your tournament, not the first level.

That's why I have nothing against doubling blinds on the first increase, as long as the rest of the structure is good. And that's why my OCD would have me set the first level to 100/200. :)

I have nothing against your 100/300, I'm just explaining my reasoning. :)

Thanks for your reasoning. :tup: Makes sense :)

Aha, I missed this. I thought addon was for the full 80k. Yes, if everyone is on time and also adds on, that's 9×(80000×5000+25000) = 990000. That leaves 435000 for rebuys (only counting the 5k and 25k since all others will not survive the tournament), which covers 5 rebuys and should also give enough room to round up during color-ups.

=) Yeah, I think it should be enough to cover most situations.
 

JustinInMN

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Start stacks:
15-7-15-7(8)-1
I don't have a ton of experience hosting T100 tournaments but the couple I played in the casino did 15/5/x breakdown.

Schedule? Without the T1K the chips in play is on the lower side with around 90-100 chips. Would have preferred a bit more
why not start at 100-200 with a 50K stack? That's 250bb, close to 267, amd the tournament probably will have 1K in play at the end.

Also makes rebuys easier to handle since it's a multiple of 25k.

If you are looking for 10 players and assuming 50k starting stacks of 15/5/16/6 you are set up to buy 150/50/160/80/60 of T100/500/1K/5K/25K

Extra 5k and 25k for color ups and re-entries.

Staring at 100-200 fits your 3 levels then break cadence better.

I like multiples of 2-4,3-6,4-8,6-12,8-16 for making levels with the optional 1-1, 1-2, 1-3 levels at the start.

100-200, 100-300, 200-400, (break 5m)
300-600,400-800,600-1200 (break 5m)
800-1600, 1000-2000, 1500-3000 (10m,
Color up T100 & 500, alternatively 1200-2400, 1600-3200 as last two levels since T100 chips will still be in play)

2k-4k, 3k-6k, 4k-8k
6k-12, 8k-16k, 10k-20k (remove t1k if needed)

I guess that's still about 90 chips in play at the end, you could order for T5k chips I guess if you want a bigger number.

Re-buy/re-fill (up to start stack for full buy-in price, to reduce silly all-ins right before the break)

The surrender rule actually has the same effect. Players with chips at the cutoff can surrender their stack and re enter for a full stack.

Hope this helps. Good luck.
 

Frode789

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That's a good suggestion, thank you :)

Yes the surrender stack option, that's what I think we are doing.. :p If they have 3K left, they will only get 17K from the bank for the re-buy. But they deny their opponent getting those 3K if they only had rag hands right before the rebuy break.

I agree with your overall schedule. Also liking more and more doing a 1100/2200 or 1200/2400 level to keep things more consistent, and do the removal of 100s and 500s at the same time.

Though ut makes less use of the T25K, obviously because of the smaller stacks.

Another option in that regard..

Is going T100K with 200/400 and 300/400 as first levels for a slow start, and keeps it in the same break pattern later on. Makes more use of the T25Ks/T5Ks, and allows for a healthy stack of T5Ks at the start (11). That will put end-game with around 120 chips without T1Ks, and the T25K accounting for about 15-20% of it, which is perfect.

Even with ~1 mill chips, last level will still be most of the time 40K. (and sometimes 30K depending on player count/addons/rebuys). And never more than the next level (50K or 60K).
 
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JustinInMN

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It seems like using T25Ks is a goal here. Which is fine, figure out how many you would like to use and try and get the pool to that point. If your goal is a final table with something like 40*T25K and 80*T5K in play then you are trying to generate a tournament with T1.4M in play. That let's us assume a couple of things.

1) Last level. Using the 30BB rule, that would end with the BB around 40K. Work backward from that to figure out your structure and timing.
2) Starting Stack. So you would also would assume that with 9 entries and say 4 full re-entries, that would run into into figuring out your ideal starting stack. 1.4M/13 would be about T108K starting stack if you really want to get into these values. (maybe lower if you estimate most players will do the smaller add on.

So given that, maybe for the denoms you want to use, maybe a base T500 Set is more to your liking.

You could do T100K starting stacks starting at 500-500 (200 BB) or T125K start (250 BB) but it would use more of the denoms you are wanting.

A 500 chip set could be 80/160/160/80/20
So you would have 13 stacks of 6/12/12/6 For T200K starts, plus extra T25K and T100K chips for reentry and color up, plus the option to host 20 players with tighter 4/8/8/4 stacks at T150K.

Or if you prefer to tailor to the single table game
60/120/120/120/80

Just another way to look at it.
 
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Mr Winberg

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you are trying to generate a tournament with T1.4M in play
1.4M/13 would be about T108K starting stack
FYP :)

Yes, that's a very good way of looking at it if you want a certain disposition of chips during the endgame.

Another way to reach the chip count you're after without increasing the starting stack is to increase the add-on. It's quite common for the add-on to be the same size as the starting stack, but a drawback with that approach is that winnings (and losses for that matter) are heavily reduced after the add-on.
 

Frode789

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Did you mean 300/600?

I was thinking similarly to the 100/100, 100/200, 100/300 etc levels. Giving a slow early progression. Could do 200/400, 300/500 (or 300/400), 300/600. So the total chips in blinds increases, albeit slowly. I could of course remove a level, but to keep rebuy time the same (I want 800/1600 to be last level, and it should be after about 2:10 h), I would have to increase level time to compensate. Don't want that, to keep levels consistent with later in the tournament. (so not having 26 min levels before rebuy, and then down to 23..)

It seems like using T25Ks is a goal here. Which is fine, figure out how many you would like to use and try and get the pool to that point. If your goal is a final table with something like 40*T25K and 80*T5K in play then you are trying to generate a tournament with T1.4M in play. That let's us assume a couple of things.

1) Last level. Using the 30BB rule, that would end with the BB around 40K. Work backward from that to figure out your structure and timing.
2) Starting Stack. So you would also would assume that with 9 entries and say 4 full re-entries, that would run into into figuring out your ideal starting stack. 1.4M/13 would be about T108K starting stack if you really want to get into these values. (maybe lower if you estimate most players will do the smaller add on.

So given that, maybe for the denoms you want to use, maybe a base T500 Set is more to your liking.

You could do T100K starting stacks starting at 500-500 (200 BB) or T125K start (250 BB) but it would use more of the denoms you are wanting.

A 500 chip set could be 80/160/160/80/20
So you would have 13 stacks of 6/12/12/6 For T200K starts, plus extra T25K and T100K chips for reentry and color up, plus the option to host 20 players with tighter 4/8/8/4 stacks at T150K.

Or if you prefer to tailor to the single table game
60/120/120/120/80

Just another way to look at it.

Just a bit. But no need for 40 T25Ks. =) Trying to find a nice sweetspot.
Like I posted above, with T100K (and expected 1 re-buy + 3 addons on average), I land with around 120 chips at the end, with around 20 of them being T25Ks. So I think, based on my group, that is a decent middleground. They get some play, without going overboard with stack sizes, tournament length, levels, and without ruining the early levels.

Yes I'm basing it on 40K being generally the last level.
My group is maybe a bit strange.. So in addition to 8 entries, we will almost never have 2 full re-entries (or more). Usually 1, and often 0.
As for addons, about 2-4, maybe 5. So with T100K and my group "stats", that means we should never see more than about 1.1-1.2 M chips. That may at most stretch it to the 60K level. I may need to fine tune the level times after testing this a couple of times though.

True, I could do a 500 based set.
But in a T100K a T100 chip will still see plenty of action. With first level at 200/400, that gives us 250 BB to go. You'll still have good use for the T100s, up to 3 hours as per my suggested schedule, and providing more flexibility in the level amounts.

I think, at least. ^^
 

JustinInMN

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I think you got the gist then if you want 20 * 25K on the table at the end with 80 or so T5K then you are actually targeting a tournament with about 800-900K in play.

And yes you know your group better on the rebuy frequency. And the deeper a tournament starts, it makes sense there would be few rebuys.

Good luck on your set, post pics when you can.
 
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