Tourney Super Turbo Satellite Tournament (1 Viewer)

[grantc54]

Looking for feedback on a pre-tournament super turbo satellite structure.

I want to make sure the tournament ends within 1 hour for the start of the main tournament.

Players could be anywhere from 4-10 (tournament buyin for every 4 sat buyins).

Starting stack 1500 (8 x T25, 8 x T100, 1 x T500)

Levels are 10 minutes.

Blinds are:
25/50
50/100
100/200
200/400
300/600
400/800
600/1200

By my estimate the ending times would be:
4-5 players - 40 minutes - 200/400
6-8 players - 50 minutes - 300/600
9-10 players - 1 hour - 400/800

Haven't done a super turbo with T25 starting denom before.

Open to all feedback/suggestions on starting stack, blind levels, and blind lengths. Only rule is that the tournament is done within 1 hour.

Thanks
Grant

 

[grantc54]

Thinking if 4-6 players may bump starting stack up to T2000 and still stay under 1 hour.

 

[BGinGA]

It sounds like you are wanting to meet the following parameters: event length <= one hour, regardless of the actual number of players (ranging from 4 to 10), using a T25-base set.

Regarding the structure, a maximum of six 10-minute levels seems somewhat reasonable (as does a maximum of five 12-minute levels), and even four 15-minute levels or three 20-minute levels has merit -- the latter have longer levels but with bigger increases per level. We can evaluate the merits of each approach if you wish.

But first, your suggested 1500 starting stack with 25/50 opening blinds is only 30BB to start, essentially making the event a shovefest almost immediately (especially with 10-minute levels).

Personally, I'd want to do at least 50BB stacks.

Looking at a full field (10 players) of 60BB stacks (3000 each), that puts the estimated final blind level at 750/1500 or earlier. So starting at 25/50:

10-minute levels, 100% increases:
L1 25/50
L2 50/100
L3 100/200
L4 200/400
L5 400/800
L6 800/1600

So ten players with 60BB stacks (T3000) finishes in 60 minutes or less.

And five players with 120BB stacks (T6000) will also finish in under an hour.

I would tailor the starting stack size to the number of players, making the event last close to 60 minutes regardless of the number of players:

9-10 players: T3000
6--8 players: T4500
4-5 players: T6000

 

[grantc54]

It sounds like you are wanting to meet the following parameters: event length <= one hour, regardless of the actual number of players (ranging from 4 to 10), using a T25-base set.

Regarding the structure, a maximum of six 10-minute levels seems somewhat reasonable (as does a maximum of five 12-minute levels), and even four 15-minute levels or three 20-minute levels has merit -- the latter have longer levels but with bigger increases per level. We can evaluate the merits of each approach if you wish.

But first, your suggested 1500 starting stack with 25/50 opening blinds is only 30BB to start, essentially making the event a shovefest almost immediately (especially with 10-minute levels).

Personally, I'd want to do at least 50BB stacks.

Looking at a full field (10 players) of 60BB stacks (3000 each), that puts the estimated final blind level at 750/1500 or earlier. So starting at 25/50:

10-minute levels, 100% increases:
L1 25/50
L2 50/100
L3 100/200
L4 200/400
L5 400/800
L6 800/1600

So ten players with 60BB stacks (T3000) finishes in 60 minutes or less.

And five players with 120BB stacks (T6000) will also finish in under an hour.

I would tailor the starting stack size to the number of players, making the event last close to 60 minutes regardless of the number of players:

9-10 players: T3000
6--8 players: T4500
4-5 players: T6000

Thank you.

This makes a ton of sense and helps a lot.

 

[grantc54]

Is there any calculation similar to the 20BB blind ending time calculation when calculating for satellites.

For example, if I have 12 players, with 3 satellites, the game ends when thr 4th player is knocked out.

Thanks
Grant

 

[grantc54]

This structure worked great btw. Had 12 players and it lasted just over 40 minutes, which was perfect for the window of time I had.

 

[Mr Winberg]

Is there any calculation similar to the 20BB blind ending time calculation when calculating for satellites.

For example, if I have 12 players, with 3 satellites, the game ends when thr 4th player is knocked out.

Thanks
Grant

The logic behind the 20BB rule is that the short stack can have at most 10 BBs and therefore there'll be a lot of shoving. If applying the same logic, maybe a rule could be that it should be down to X players no later than when there are [X times 10] BBs left in play? E.g. 4 left no later than when there are 40 BBs left. This is pure theory, I haven't tested it.

I believe @Poker Zombie has all sorts of statistics, maybe he can weigh in?

Given how nitty satellite can be towards the end, where the bubble play means nothing to win and everything to lose, I wouldn't be surprised if my attempt above under-estimates the tournament time.

Beware that even the 20BB rule is just a rule of thumb. If using antes it's more like the 30BB rule. Longer tournaments mean even more BBs, my tourneys are 6 hours and usually end with 40-50 BBs left. I haven't fact checked, but I believe the WSOP ME often ends with around 70-80.

 

[Poker Zombie]

The logic behind the 20BB rule is that the short stack can have at most 10 BBs and therefore there'll be a lot of shoving. If applying the same logic, maybe a rule could be that it should be down to X players no later than when there are [X times 10] BBs left in play? E.g. 4 left no later than when there are 40 BBs left. This is pure theory, I haven't tested it.

I believe @Poker Zombie has all sorts of statistics, maybe he can weigh in?

Given how nitty satellite can be towards the end, where the bubble play means nothing to win and everything to lose, I wouldn't be surprised if my attempt above under-estimates the tournament time.

Beware that even the 20BB rule is just a rule of thumb. If using antes it's more like the 30BB rule. Longer tournaments mean even more BBs, my tourneys are 6 hours and usually end with 40-50 BBs left. I haven't fact checked, but I believe the WSOP ME often ends with around 70-80.

This goes along with my results. It's a good rule of thumb for home games, but does not hold up in larger, casino run tournaments or the WSOP. However, some players can play more nitty running the game longer. If there is a cash game following, players may get shove-happy or simply chop to get to the cash game.

 

[Sparkynutz]

It sounds like you are wanting to meet the following parameters: event length <= one hour, regardless of the actual number of players (ranging from 4 to 10), using a T25-base set.

Regarding the structure, a maximum of six 10-minute levels seems somewhat reasonable (as does a maximum of five 12-minute levels), and even four 15-minute levels or three 20-minute levels has merit -- the latter have longer levels but with bigger increases per level. We can evaluate the merits of each approach if you wish.

But first, your suggested 1500 starting stack with 25/50 opening blinds is only 30BB to start, essentially making the event a shovefest almost immediately (especially with 10-minute levels).

Personally, I'd want to do at least 50BB stacks.

Looking at a full field (10 players) of 60BB stacks (3000 each), that puts the estimated final blind level at 750/1500 or earlier. So starting at 25/50:

10-minute levels, 100% increases:
L1 25/50
L2 50/100
L3 100/200
L4 200/400
L5 400/800
L6 800/1600

So ten players with 60BB stacks (T3000) finishes in 60 minutes or less.

And five players with 120BB stacks (T6000) will also finish in under an hour.

I would tailor the starting stack size to the number of players, making the event last close to 60 minutes regardless of the number of players:

9-10 players: T3000
6--8 players: T4500
4-5 players: T6000

How would you feel about 5k starting stacks for 8-16 players
8x t25
8x t100
4x t500
2x t1k
First two out allowed to rebuy with 5x T1k or 1x t5k

10 minutes levels same as you specified?
Looking at a t25 chipset and wondering how it would play out and fit the group.

 

[BGinGA]

How would you feel about 5k starting stacks for 8-16 players
8x t25
8x t100
4x t500
2x t1k
First two out allowed to rebuy with 5x T1k or 1x t5k

10 minutes levels same as you specified?
Looking at a t25 chipset and wondering how it would play out and fit the group.

^ Eight players will finish in about an hour. If you continue with doubled blinds every 10 minutes, it's not likely that 9-16 players will last much past 70 minutes, even with re-buys.

Don't use T5000s for re-buys -- nobody on the table has the change needed to break them down.