Cash Game Structure for "average folks" (2 Viewers)

[DJ Mack]

So I had a very interesting conversation with my out of state sister-in-law last night. She's a card player, sometimes a poker player with her girlfriends. I mentioned my CPC order and out of the blue she said that she's been looking at the idea of getting some custom chips made for her gang but not really sure where to start. At this point she doesn't know if she wants ceramic or clay so I'll help her with that. She also wants me to help with the design so yay, I get to have two cash projects running simultaneously.

My problem is figuring out how much she needs. Here are the facts as I know them:
1. Normally up to 10 players but every now and then spouses and significant others come which would bump it to 17. Let's say 20 for round numbers.
2. Exclusively cash games, normally $10-$20 buyin. Rebuys are allowed but nobody ever spends more than $40 a night - very rarely does anybody do more than one rebuy
3. Games are dealer's choice - sometimes there's blinds other times there's antes
4. In general folks like to be able to play for about three hours

My preliminary recommendation is:
.25c x 200
$1 x 400
$5 x 200
$25 x 60

Assuming 20 people and if the average person buys in $30 that means the pot is $600. This count would have $450 between quarters and 1s plus $1000 on 5s.

I'm thinking of suggesting a single rack of nickels in case they want to go microstakes. They like to play blackjack and other tables games sometimes too (not in the same night as poker) so I'm going to include 40 x $2.50 chips (because what girl doesn't like special pink chips?)

Any ideas? If this were a more traditional tournament or cash game structure (e.g. higher stakes, limit v NL) I'd feel a lot more comfortable. I've searched up and down PCF and can't find anyone with this exact situation but I cobbled together my first cut based on the wealth of good advice I did come across.

 

[SixSpeedFury]

For $10-$20 buy ins the $5 and $25s will never see play. Those are considered low stakes, so I'd go .5, .25, and $1, with a few $5s for rebuys.

 

[DJ Mack]

For $10-$20 buy ins the $5 and $25s will never see play. Those are considered low stakes, so I'd go .5, .25, and $1, with a few $5s for rebuys.

Would that mean the workhorse would shift down from $1 to 25c?

 

[Irish]

Do they play no limit, fixed limit, spread limit or a mix?

 

[DJ Mack]

A mix - and that's the problem. It's a very loose (in terms of formality) group. I get the impression that whatever the dealer of that particular hand wants is how they play.

 

[SixSpeedFury]

What's their betting like?

 

[mummel]

For 10 player games with $25 buy-ins and 25c/25c blinds, Im going:

200 X 25c
200X $1
175 X $5
=20 X 25c + 20 X $1 starting stacks, and use 5 X $5 for rebuys

You could get way less $5s (say 50 total, allows for 10 rebuys), depending on where you want to cap your buy-ins, but 175 X $5 allows me to go to $100 buy-ins if I ever get there (20 X $1 + 16 X $5 starting stacks).

Not 100% applicable to your situation but gives you some idea on the micro stakes side.

 

[DJ Mack]

What's their betting like?

Depends how much wine they've had at that particular point. For the most part not super aggressive. Occasionally they'll have bets of a couple of bucks although last time they played as the night went on and folks busted out they had a couple of ten dollar bets bandied about.

 

[inca911]

Games will change as finances/friends change, so you want to cover future games as well. With inflation, 0.25/0.50 will grow bigger. My advice is to not skimp on the 5s.

 

[RowdyRawhide]

I think another rack of quarters esp. if they play ante/quarter limit games. personally I would get rid of the $25. if she wants a bigger denom and these are custom then I would get a barrel of $20 and 180 $5 for two racks of chips that won't see play very often or possibly anytime soon

Bank would be $1775
for a game that usually sees no more than $400 on the table and might make it to $1000 if spouses are involved
Of course this is only 900 chips so you could get another rack of one of the three lower denoms to fill out a cage

 

[DJ Mack]

Welp, just got off the phone with her to learn a bit more about how they play and what she's looking for. I wouldn't be surprised if she signs up for PCF sooner or later since her basic mentality was moar chips are better. She really wants the greens, whether they be $20 or $25 even if they'll almost never see use. I told her one option might be to make green plaques for the top end.

They do have a use for nickels, especially if it's a light crowd and nobody wants to buy in more than ten bucks. Sooooo, combining this with all the great feedback received so far here's where I'm leaning:

.05 x 200
.25 x 400
$1 x 300
$5 x 140
$20/$25 x 20

And, because girls like to be girls and MOAR CHIPS, $2.50 x 40. That gives her a bank of $1,710, which, as noted is more than double the cash on hand even with a large crowd. It's 1,100 chips but it's those nickels driving up the count for almost no cash. Hmm..

 

[SixSpeedFury]

She really wants the greens, whether they be $20 or $25 even if they'll almost never see use.

That's a chippers mentality all right

 

[Trihonda]

Welp, just got off the phone with her to learn a bit more about how they play and what she's looking for. I wouldn't be surprised if she signs up for PCF sooner or later since her basic mentality was moar chips are better. She really wants the greens, whether they be $20 or $25 even if they'll almost never see use. I told her one option might be to make green plaques for the top end.

They do have a use for nickels, especially if it's a light crowd and nobody wants to buy in more than ten bucks. Sooooo, combining this with all the great feedback received so far here's where I'm leaning:

.05 x 200
.25 x 400
$1 x 300
$5 x 140
$20/$25 x 20

And, because girls like to be girls and MOAR CHIPS, $2.50 x 40. That gives her a bank of $1,710, which, as noted is more than double the cash on hand even with a large crowd. It's 1,100 chips but it's those nickelsy driving up the count for almost no cash. Hmm..

Games will change as finances/friends change, so you want to cover future games as well. With inflation, 0.25/0.50 will grow bigger. My advice is to not skimp on the 5s.

Inca a has it right... Especially with customs, it may, or may not be simple to add on later, so get all the chips you'll ever need up front. The game will likely evolve and grow.

That said, I have a massive 2000+ Chip cash set, and we play primarily $.25/.50 cash games. I also host a meetup, where we've had three tables running, and I've never used all of my 300 quarters (and I always advocate for more quarters)... I'd scale back in your quarters... Add more $1's and $5's.

As for the snappers, meh. Isn't that more to do with tipping the dealer, or some such? Not a blackjack expert, but if you can get away with putting more universally useful chips into the set, I'd go that route. But if momey isn't an object, fire away.

 

[bentax1978]

Not a blackjack expert, but if you can get away with putting more universally useful chips into the set, I'd go that route. But if momey isn't an object, fire away.

Or just be more like Vegas and start paying 6:5 on blackjack and you'll have no need for snappers. (not that you couldn't use quarters)

 

[Trihonda]

(not that you couldn't use quarters)

Yup, exactly my point. Use the quarters for BJ if you play. Put those numbers (for the snappers) elsewhere, say in $5 chips...

 

[Shaggy]

the snappers are only relevant to blackjack if you are betting odd $5 chip amounts... $5, $15, $25. My assumption is this group is not betting $5 hands of blackjack. No need for snappers.

 

[DJ Mack]

I won't say money is no object but she's a middle-aged oncologist married to an exercise physiologist with one grown child. If I told her the only way to accomplish this was to call Paulson and place an order for 100,000 and give me 95,000 she'd furrow her brow and say "well, if that's what it takes." She's an interesting bird - rich as all get out but cheap as hell (witness the pitiful stakes), except when she actually buys something she needs it's going to be darn near top of the line. That's why it's important to more or less do this right but cost isn't a huge concern.

@Trihonda in your experience is there any reason to have any five centers? If I drop the nickels completely I can add another hundred to the ones, cut quarters to 300 and bump $5s to 240. That would have her at an even 1,000 chips.

 

[BGinGA]

For up to 20 players with $20 buy-ins/re-loads, I'd go with:

200 x 5c
200 x 25c
200 x $1
200 x $5
-----------
800 chips

Enough for 10 nickels and/or 10 quarters each for 20 players, and a total bank of $1260 (or $63 per player x 20).

Custom ceramics or hybrids if budget-concious, or full-blown custom CPCs if money is no object.

 

[Irish]

Welp, just got off the phone with her to learn a bit more about how they play and what she's looking for. I wouldn't be surprised if she signs up for PCF sooner or later since her basic mentality was moar chips are better. She really wants the greens, whether they be $20 or $25 even if they'll almost never see use. I told her one option might be to make green plaques for the top end.

They do have a use for nickels, especially if it's a light crowd and nobody wants to buy in more than ten bucks. Sooooo, combining this with all the great feedback received so far here's where I'm leaning:

.05 x 200
.25 x 400
$1 x 300
$5 x 140
$20/$25 x 20

And, because girls like to be girls and MOAR CHIPS, $2.50 x 40. That gives her a bank of $1,710, which, as noted is more than double the cash on hand even with a large crowd. It's 1,100 chips but it's those nickels driving up the count for almost no cash. Hmm..

That's pretty close to what I was going to recommend, given the requirements (I would nix the $2.50s and go with 2 full racks of $5s plus the barrel of 20s). With this setup, you can spread NLHE stakes from 5¢/10¢ to a smaller 25¢/50¢ for 10-20 people:

NLHE 5¢/10¢ - $10 buyin, 10 players*
20 - 5¢
20 - 25¢
4 - $1
44 chips per person

NLHE 5¢/10¢ - $10 buyin, 20 players*
10 - 5¢
18 - 25¢
5 - $1
33 chips per person

NLHE 25¢/25¢ - $20 buy-in, 10 to 20 players**
20 - 25¢
15 - $1
35 chips per person

NLHE 25¢/50¢ - $40 buy-in, 10 to 20 players**
20 - 25¢
15 - $1
4 - $5
39 chips per person

* add 10 - $1 for $20 buy-ins
** add more $5s for higher buy-ins in the future

...and having the 400 quarters is a decent start for single table limit games as well, a $10 buy-in limit game is probably using 25¢/50¢ stakes with nickel antes.

Limit 25¢/50¢ - $10 buy-in, 8 players
10 - 5¢
38 - 25¢
48 chips per person

Definitely not ideal for running 2 tables, but you could do it:

Limit 25¢/50¢ - $10 buy-in, 16 players
10 - 5¢
22 - 25¢
4 - $1
36 chips per person

It sounds like they really don't have a true limit game, but more like a mixed stakes night where they play some fixed limit, some no limit and maybe some pot limit. If that's really the case, the NL stack breakdowns above should work for the various mixed games.

Buy-in/re-buywise, this group sounds very similar to one of the groups I play with. They played 15¢/30¢ NLHE with $20 buy-ins for years, action was limited and you'd get maybe 2-3 rebuys total on a given night, and played shorter sessions, 3-4 hours. I convinced the group that the buy-in was a bit short stacked for the stakes; we didn't want to dip down to the 5¢/10¢ level, but wanted to keep the $20 buy-in, so now we typically play 25¢/25¢ with a 20/10/1 (25¢/$1/$5) starting stack (we keep the fiver as the "serious bet" chip ). It's worked very well.

If she's really looking for that "one set fits all", what you've got will fit the bill. Not the best breakdown for some of the scenarios, but it covers what it sounds like are the main games and stakes, and give her a little room to expand to games with slightly higher buy-ins ($40-$60 range).

 

[mummel]

We are going to need some serious chip pRoN when all this gets sorted out.

 

[DJ Mack]

We are going to need some serious chip pRoN when all this gets sorted out.

Yeah this is going to be a fun project. I'm not the world's best artist but she's got a cool idea to use the Cleveland skyline in a very simple form since that's her hometown. The inlays may wind up being kind of disappointing because she wants to take a very minimalist approach. The good news is there's no real rush so there's still plenty of time to come up with ideas. The bad news is she's not in a huge hurry to make an order today so it may be a while. I'm taking some ceramic and CPC samples when I see her next week.

 

[Craig D]

I always advise getting a bank twice as large as the most money ever on the table in the game

So normally $400 at most with 10 players $800 with 20 players

800 chips is great for a normal single table and can be stretched to two tables

Looks like normal game plays tiny and more fun, more fun to me is more chips on the table

If the game is not going to grow in stakes and from what you are saying it wont this is what I recommend for her game

NO $5 CHIPS anything above $1 chips will almost never get used in this game

800 Chips Bank $1600

200x5c 200x25c 340x$1 60x$20

This also means with 10 player using a 20/20/14 $20 starting stack plenty of chips are in play and if everyone re-buys for $20 all the little chips are in play and the $20s are ready just in case

20 players $20 starting stack 10/10/7 uses all the little chips and leaves the $20s for re-buys


Have Fun
PS This advise is worth what you paid for it and remember to get spares of each denomination
All of the advice is the whole thread is good. It comes down to what she likes

 

[DJ Mack]

An update - semi-final numbers are in. Thanks to everyone's input here is the breakdown:
200 x $0.05
300 x $0.25
340 x $1.00
200 x $5.00
20 x $20.00
40 x $2.50

I couldn't talk her out of getting the snappers and they do sometimes play blackjack tournament style with $5 chips today so that is what it is.

I'll see her this weekend to start the conversation on GOCC versus CPC. For the novelty of it one possibility includes getting $20 plaques, either in addition to or in lieu of the chips. I don't have much of a collection to offer there. I've got a GOCC sample and I'm in on one of the MSK group buys but that'll be some time yet. If it happens I suspect that this will be phase two.

 

[Ellasdaddy]

Any update on this project? Any design ideas in the custom section that I missed?

 

[Trihonda]

Any update on this project? Any design ideas in the custom section that I missed?

@DJ Mack

Curious how things are going? Mockups? Pics?

 

[DJ Mack]

@DJ Mack

Curious how things are going? Mockups? Pics?

As well as can be I guess. Currently in CPC jail, just waiting my turn in the hopper. Should be in production in October. I've come to the realization that between this order, Horseshoe and a few others I've got 3,500+ chips inbound in the next two months. I've passed the time by hoarding racks and chip carriers, putting up a cheap but sturdy bookcase in the basement and reinforcing the shelves. Apologies for the photos that are crooked. Working with natural sunlight from behind me and there's no good way to get a straight shot without casting big shadows:



The cash set quantities are as indicated above. Here's the final artwork:


Plaques came in from MSK, a little pr0n here:


Finally, Sal at OWPS is making me 10 dealer buttons to match:

 

[mummel]

I'm pretty sure poker chip (and related paraphernalia) collecting is an addiction. We need a warning disclaimer on the PCF signup form.

DJ! That shelf is great. Take a look at the other LED light strip thread. While you're waiting, you can add some bling to that shelf! Im going to do mine soon, probably a winter project when I have more time.

 

[DJ Mack]

Thanks ... it's an $80 WalMart special. Each shelf is rated for 30 pounds with the bottom being 35 and the very top being zero. I did some angle brackets on the ones expected to hold more than 1,500 chips and was able to keep 60 pound dumbbells in the middle for two days at a time with no flex or damage, so......

I am indeed looking at LED strips to enhance the lighting thanks to that thread. But for now I'm in cash preservation mode. Gotta build the bank account back up some without working 14 hour days, LOL. Anyway, there is an outlet directly behind the shelf and with the molding I can just plug in one of those 3' flat plug extension cords and push it back. I did a similar modification using a traditional T bulb socket for a cabinet we use to hold our China and it's complete with an on/off rocker switch on the side.

 

[mummel]

Darn $80 is a good price for that shelf.